We redesigned Holy Shield

85 Draenei Paladin
8505
Halfus. no saving it wont matter, use it right off the bat then as often as you can.
temple. only matters when you jump back to nature to tank his ultimate, and you would be off cooldown most likely anyway, so spam it the rest of the time would be the same result.
mal. spam it if you are adds tank, spam it if you are main tank.
cho'gall. I can see this one, its useless during flames orders, so save it until shadows orders.
nef. useless to save it, spam it.
atramedes. useless to save it except in air phase, spam it when in ground phase.
val and ther, useless to save it except during transitions, spam it.
council. useless to save it except during transitions, spam it.
There's more to it than just getting the most mitigation out of it. If burst damage on the tank comes in physical and magic forms, Holy Shield can be used to mitigate the physical portion. Nef's Electrocutes come to mind here. Electrocutes alone won't kill a tank, it's an Electrocute combined with melee swings, or possibly a breath. The breath + Electrocute scenario obviously has no place for Holy Shield, but Electrocute + melee swings can be helped by the new Holy Shield.

Cho'gal's Flame's Orders can kill a tank, and about 30-40% of the damage you take during them is from his melee swings, the rest fire damage. Being able to mitigate some of that burst through the proposed Holy Shield is wonderful, even if it's only a small portion. Cho'gall really doesn't do any serious damage outside of his fire/shadow/MC buffs, so the downtime really isn't a huge concern except for the fact that you won't have it up for the other elemental.
85 Night Elf Death Knight
3390
Does the new Holy Shield use a GCD?
06/17/2011 10:08 AMPosted by Balthius
Does the new Holy Shield use a GCD?


Nope.
85 Draenei Warrior
9495
Cho'gal's Flame's Orders can kill a tank, and about 30-40% of the damage you take during them is from his melee swings, the rest fire damage. Being able to mitigate some of that burst through the proposed Holy Shield is wonderful, even if it's only a small portion. Cho'gall really doesn't do any serious damage outside of his fire/shadow/MC buffs, so the downtime really isn't a huge concern except for the fact that you won't have it up for the other elemental.


flames orders replaces his melee attacks with unblockable fire damage melee attacks. blow a cooldown and wait for the phase to end.
thats what i meant about useless during flames orders.
85 Night Elf Death Knight
3390
06/17/2011 10:09 AMPosted by Barwicka
Does the new Holy Shield use a GCD?


Nope.


Okay, so on my Pally tank I'm just gonna macro that to CS/HotR.

Upside: maximum uptime

Downside: I might have to wait 20 seconds before I can use it again and rely on the rest of my *more powerful* tanking CD's to handle bad bursts of damage.

Not a whole lot of choice involved there.
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
06/17/2011 06:07 AMPosted by Feanorion
Unhittable is really not that big a deal: encounters will simply be tuned around the expectation of us being unhittable.


Uh, no. It's nice if you're one of the guys with a shield, crap otherwise. You looking forward to bosses hitting 30% harder to compensate for unhittable? How about DK's, how do you guys feel? Druids, chime in anytime...

Mana is already not mattering quite as much once you're in 372. Unless they do something about mana regen (like, say, gutting mana tide, nerfing innervate... teehee) soon the only thing that will kill a tank is not a healer going OOM, but a healer having to move for just long enough for the tank to get gibbed. It's already what happens; a large number of the times when I die it's not because a healer went OOM, but they were forced to move for too long.

Tanks achieving unhittable is not good for the game.
85 Draenei Paladin
4475
06/17/2011 10:01 AMPosted by Awanawa
I don't like the change. 40% blocked all the time is far better than 30% blocked most of the time and 50% blocked some of the time.

Remember that next time a mob has an enrage/frenzy ability, because you're wrong.

I have enough cooldown abilities to remember to use currently - I don't need another one. What an @ssinine waste of developer time.

You not being good enough at using cooldowns isn't a good reason for Holy Shield to be passive. My Shaman is bad at using Mana Tide effectively, so clearly the best solution is to remove Mana Tide and just give me a sizeable regen boost.


I have other (and more effective) cooldowns to use during enrage/frenzy, and me taking more damage through the whole fight doesn't balance-out a slight reduction in damage-taken for 10 SECONDS of an enrage. If it were a 30-second ability on a 3-minute cooldown, THAT would be a cooldown. This is just something else to remember to do, or (more likely) just macro to other abilities (HoR, CS).

As I said, a complete waste of developer time. Only a pretentious prick thinks the more buttons you press the more 'worthy' you are. I'll take effective over pompous any day.
90 Dwarf Paladin
12145


Okay, so on my Pally tank I'm just gonna macro that to CS/HotR.

Upside: maximum uptime

Downside: I might have to wait 20 seconds before I can use it again and rely on the rest of my *more powerful* tanking CD's to handle bad bursts of damage.

Not a whole lot of choice involved there.


Opting out of the choice doesn't make it a lack of choice.


Well, (this is Balthius btw) being able to cheese your way out of having to consciously make the choice to use it because there isn't any kind of penalty other than not having it for 20 seconds (doesn't even use up a GCD) doesn't make a good choice to me.

IMO, in order for it to be an interesting choice it's gotta be strong enough to make me say "Hey, I might need that later. Don't use it now." and/or have a long enough CD to make me go "If I use this ability whenever off CD, there's a lot of time before I can use it again. I shouldn't waste it."
85 Draenei Paladin
8505
flames orders replaces his melee attacks with unblockable fire damage melee attacks. blow a cooldown and wait for the phase to end.
thats what i meant about useless during flames orders.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1m1k5jv62710dr04/xe/?s=4491&e=4656&x=%28sourceName+%3D+%22Cho%27gall%22+and+targetName+%3D+%22Corpsetwo%22%29+or+spell+%3D+%22Flame%27s+Orders%22+or+spell+%3D+%22Flaming+Destruction%22

[20:20:11.835] Cho'gall gains Flaming Destruction from Fire Elemental
[20:20:12.406] Cho'gall hits Corpsetwo 3912 (A: 33047, B: 25684)
[20:20:13.069] Cho'gall's Flaming Destruction is refreshed by Fire Elemental
[20:20:13.489] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Corpsetwo 124804 (R: 15408)
[20:20:13.956] Cho'gall hits Corpsetwo Dodge
[20:20:14.814] Cho'gall's Flaming Destruction is refreshed by Fire Elemental
[20:20:15.105] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Corpsetwo 42650 (A: 1630, R: 92251)
[20:20:15.681] Cho'gall hits Corpsetwo Parry
[20:20:16.417] Cho'gall's Flaming Destruction is refreshed by Fire Elemental
[20:20:17.084] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Corpsetwo 54121 (R: 75168)
[20:20:17.406] Cho'gall hits Corpsetwo 21103 (A: 4495, B: 17789)
[20:20:18.215] Cho'gall's Flaming Destruction is refreshed by Fire Elemental
[20:20:18.517] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Corpsetwo 45059 (A: 8413, R: 74267)
[20:20:19.316] Cho'gall hits Corpsetwo 32406 (B: 22520)
[20:20:20.061] Cho'gall's Flaming Destruction is refreshed by Fire Elemental
[20:20:20.729] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Corpsetwo 64446 (R: 59672)
[20:20:21.086] Cho'gall hits Corpsetwo 29147 (A: 1679, B: 21422)
[20:20:21.581] Fire Elemental's Flaming Destruction fades from Cho'gall
Edited by Corpsetwo on 6/17/2011 10:44 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14720
06/17/2011 10:27 AMPosted by Balthius
Okay, so on my Pally tank I'm just gonna macro that to CS/HotR.


Why do people keep saying this?

It's exactly like how a Warrior tank would use Shield Block, and no warrior in his right mind has SB bound to Devastate/SS. You're literally just gimping your own survivability by macroing it into abilities. There are no encounters where spamming SB/HS on CD would provide optimal usage (As there are no encounters when you're being melee'd 100% of the time).

I guess if you believe that the only thing that matters is overall damage intake, you can go ahead and play sub-optimally. But in reality, the only thing that matters is timing your CDs effectively to allow healers to catch up, and you to live during large spike damage/low healer uptime.
85 Draenei Warrior
9495
i prefer choices.

the glyph of long word for paladins is a perfect example. do i want one big word of glory, or do i want half now, and half over time so that its likely i have less overhealing?

there are reasons for both. especially as a tank. the decision of which way to go is up to the player (to the degree that you want to use a glyph on it)

85 Orc Warlock
12800
06/17/2011 10:41 AMPosted by Zarom
I have other (and more effective) cooldowns to use during enrage/frenzy, and me taking more damage through the whole fight doesn't balance-out a slight reduction in damage-taken for 10 SECONDS of an enrage.

It's irrelevant that you have other cooldowns to use. The point is that the best situation to use Holy Shield is during those times. Also, why would you waste something that reduces magical damage, when you only need physical? Divine Protection, sure. But blowing GoAK or AD when you have HS available is silly.

Only the whiny pricks can't understand why being able to pick the times for your damage reductions is important.
90 Draenei Warrior
14070
06/17/2011 05:16 AMPosted by Feanorion
I just have to ask, what exactly is so bad about a hard capped mastery?


While Warriors will still be happily reaping the benefits of their best stat with no DR, we will be reforging away what SHOULD be--- what USED TO BE (pre-block capping) our best stat, to gain some minuscule pittance of avoidance that is crushed into microscopic proportions by Diminishing Returns.
Warriors aren't going to be far behind pallies in block capping and while mastery still has some value to us after that, until we reach when avoidance is worse than mastery again, we're going to be going for avoidance as well.

Maybe you like the idea of a class running around with permanent 30% PDR against all mobs attacking from the front. I don't.

I know you were looking at it from the point of "are hardcaps bad", but really, it's the balance elephant in the room. Paladins (and Warriors) should not be so close to unhittable. It's silly.
Ehh... I know, I'm just not convinced that it's an issue. It would be if bosses were meleeing us for a huge percent of our health most of the time, but right now, they're not (Forgive if I'm wrong about heroic bosses) and I don't see it being a huge imbalance.
-----
Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
90 Dwarf Paladin
12145
06/17/2011 10:43 AMPosted by Fbe
Okay, so on my Pally tank I'm just gonna macro that to CS/HotR.


Why do people keep saying this?

It's exactly like how a Warrior tank would use Shield Block, and no warrior in his right mind has SB bound to Devastate/SS. You're literally just gimping your own survivability by macroing it into abilities. There are no encounters where spamming SB/HS on CD would provide optimal usage (As there are no encounters when you're being melee'd 100% of the time).

I guess if you believe that the only thing that matters is overall damage intake, you can go ahead and play sub-optimally. But in reality, the only thing that matters is timing your CDs effectively to allow healers to catch up, and you to live during large spike damage/low healer uptime.


This is a good discussion.

I'm not saying that I would macro HS simply because it's not on GCD and I can. I would macro it because of the relative benefit in mitigation compared to it's uptime and cooldown. In the current healind model where damage is less bursty and overall damage taken has value, having an automatic +20% block value every 10 out of 30 seconds sounds pretty good.

Obviously if it was a fight where I knew the boss was able to hit a lot harder for a brief period of time or I would sit on it for a few second and wait for that moment. But I wonder what kind of handling of this CD would make it more optimal than just having it up 1/3 of the time. If there are any spreadsheets or logs to show I'm dead wrong, I'd be interested in seeing them.
85 Draenei Paladin
4475
It's irrelevant that you have other cooldowns to use. The point is that the best situation to use Holy Shield is during those times. Also, why would you waste something that reduces magical damage, when you only need physical? Divine Protection, sure. But blowing GoAK or AD when you have HS available is silly.

Only the whiny pricks can't understand why being able to pick the times for your damage reductions is important.


When the fight has no magical damage, or when it's all mixed-up together, why would I care? A cooldown is a cooldown.
Why would I want to take more damage most of the time, just to take slightly less during a small window?

Only the pretentious jack@sses who see their whole life's value wrapped up in how many buttons they press think this is a good change. It's a nerf and a pointless one. Anyone with half a brain realizes that.
85 Human Warrior
10485

When the fight has no magical damage, or when it's all mixed-up together, why would I care? A cooldown is a cooldown.
Why would I want to take more damage most of the time, just to take slightly less during a small window?

Only the pretentious jack@sses who see their whole life's value wrapped up in how many buttons they press think this is a good change. It's a nerf and a pointless one. Anyone with half a brain realizes that.


I'm impressed that someone with half a brain has the wherewithal to realize anything at all. That's pretty awesome!
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14720
This is a good discussion.

I'm not saying that I would macro HS simply because it's not on GCD and I can. I would macro it because of the relative benefit in mitigation compared to it's uptime and cooldown. In the current healind model where damage is less bursty and overall damage taken has value, having an automatic +20% block value every 10 out of 30 seconds sounds pretty good.

Obviously if it was a fight where I knew the boss was able to hit a lot harder for a brief period of time or I would sit on it for a few second and wait for that moment. But I wonder what kind of handling of this CD would make it more optimal than just having it up 1/3 of the time. If there are any spreadsheets or logs to show I'm dead wrong, I'd be interested in seeing them.


While there are probably no logs as of yet on the differences between situational/on CD use vs. just on CD use. The fact that paladins are given a fairly significant CD on short cooldown is very much paralleled to warriors. The similarities between the abilities is too uncanny and it's safe to assume they should be used in the same manner (Both short CDs with damage reduction through blocking).

Warriors consciously decide when and how to use their SB, and it should be no different for paladins. You will be making the choice on whether or not to use it based on a couple things.

1. Is there anything coming up in this encounter that will reduce the effectiveness of this HS (e.g. Atramedes flight phase/tank swaps)? No = Use it, Yes = Save it

2. Would this be better used (or be needed desperately) within the next 20 seconds of downtime of HS? No = Use HS, Yes = Save it

This is exactly why I don't mind the change to HS, while it is very similar to SB, homogenization and all that, I don't mind having to put more thought into tanking. Paladins were kind of lacking any real thought behind their own survivability.
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