We redesigned Holy Shield

90 Dwarf Paladin
12145
This is a good discussion.

I'm not saying that I would macro HS simply because it's not on GCD and I can. I would macro it because of the relative benefit in mitigation compared to it's uptime and cooldown. In the current healind model where damage is less bursty and overall damage taken has value, having an automatic +20% block value every 10 out of 30 seconds sounds pretty good.

Obviously if it was a fight where I knew the boss was able to hit a lot harder for a brief period of time or I would sit on it for a few second and wait for that moment. But I wonder what kind of handling of this CD would make it more optimal than just having it up 1/3 of the time. If there are any spreadsheets or logs to show I'm dead wrong, I'd be interested in seeing them.


While there are probably no logs as of yet on the differences between situational/on CD use vs. just on CD use. The fact that paladins are given a fairly significant CD on short cooldown is very much paralleled to warriors. The similarities between the abilities is too uncanny and it's safe to assume they should be used in the same manner (Both short CDs with damage reduction through blocking).

Warriors consciously decide when and how to use their SB, and it should be no different for paladins. You will be making the choice on whether or not to use it based on a couple things.

1. Is there anything coming up in this encounter that will reduce the effectiveness of this HS (e.g. Atramedes flight phase/tank swaps)? No = Use it, Yes = Save it

2. Would this be better used (or be needed desperately) within the next 20 seconds of downtime of HS? No = Use HS, Yes = Save it

This is exactly why I don't mind the change to HS, while it is very similar to SB, homogenization and all that, I don't mind having to put more thought into tanking. Paladins were kind of lacking any real thought behind their own survivability.


Well, yes I will concede that it won't be a good idea to use it at times when I'm 100% I'm not going to take any melee damage. That doesn't say much though about the ability adding decision making to our tanking.

And it shouldn't be compared to warriors sheild block. Their ability has a 1 min CD and not 30 seconds. That changes a lot. It not only increases the penalty of on CD use of 20 seconds downtime to 50 second downtime, but it is now an ability that might be more optimized by lining it use up with forseeable damage intervals rather than just using it whenever you can.

Since HS has such a large uptime/downtime ration and its benefit is difficult to measure (if you're not block-capped, it has a chance of providing no additional damage reduction). I still feel it might be better to use whenever you can and let the mitigation it may provide as added relief off the healers.
100 Tauren Warrior
19390
06/17/2011 11:45 AMPosted by Vorna
And it shouldn't be compared to warriors sheild block. Their ability has a 1 min CD and not 30 seconds.


Shield Block + Shield Mastery (2nd tier in prot) = 30 second CD

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2565
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=84608

:3
100 Human Paladin
20740



I'm impressed that someone with half a brain has the wherewithal to realize anything at all. That's pretty awesome!



Look - another pretentious jack@ss. And not even one with particularly good gear.


Just macro it to all your abilities and stop throwing personal insults because people appreciate the fact that this change is a buff at times.

The forum would be a better place without posts like yours.
Edited by Lesaberisa on 6/17/2011 11:54 AM PDT
95 Blood Elf Paladin
14325
06/17/2011 11:31 AMPosted by Mithsploit
In amounts to 10% more block reduction on demand (50% on demand when before we had 40% static),


You can't compare values between two separate patches. It will be 30% -> 50%, which is more significant than you're trying to make it seem. You may not see a whole lot of benefit when looking overall on damage on a fight. But when you take encounter mechanics into play, there are obvious uses for the new HS, where using HS at specific times can really affect the outcome of the encounter (e.g. Anshal's special or Chimaeron's double-attack).

I see the change as a nerf to bad paladins and a situational buff to the good ones who can adapt to being less passive tanks.
100 Human Paladin
15585
06/17/2011 11:50 AMPosted by Scyas
And it shouldn't be compared to warriors sheild block. Their ability has a 1 min CD and not 30 seconds.


Shield Block + Shield Mastery (2nd tier in prot) = 30 second CD

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=2565
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=84608

:3


In and of itself, Shield Block is still better given that talent. We get 20% magic damage reduction on a 1 minute CD. Warriors get it on a 30 second CD. Pretty awesome. But taken as a whole, Shield Block and Holy Shield (the new one) are both fine.
85 Human Warrior
10485

Look - another pretentious jack@ss. And not even one with particularly good gear.


Yes, it's much more pretentious to make bad puns with phrasing than to make generalizations about people's intelligence who disagree with you.

And really, are you in a position to attack my armory?
95 Blood Elf Paladin
14325
06/17/2011 12:47 PMPosted by Dekkar
In and of itself, Shield Block is still better given that talent. We get 20% magic damage reduction on a 1 minute CD. Warriors get it on a 30 second CD. Pretty awesome. But taken as a whole, Shield Block and Holy Shield (the new one) are both fine.


You can't really compare the abilities in a vacuum, it's obvious warriors have less CDs than paladins, and are compensated for it in power. You can however compare the similarities between the abilities. They are both designed with the same intent (save the recent 20% magic DR on SB), and you can draw the conclusion that Blizzard wants warriors and paladins to be using them for that purpose (to actively mitigate more damage through blocking).
Edited by Fbe on 6/17/2011 12:55 PM PDT
85 Human Warrior
11430
06/17/2011 11:02 AMPosted by Zarom
Why would I want to take more damage most of the time, just to take slightly less during a small window?


The total amount of damage you take during an encounter is way, way less important than minimizing your worst-case-scenario at specific times. This is true almost universally of every single encounter in the current raiding tier, which makes me think that it will probably be true in Firelands, too.

Given that Holy Shield in 378 Firelands gear will help minimize your worst-case-scenario, this seems like a very positive change for raiding paladins.
85 Orc Warlock
12800
06/17/2011 12:55 PMPosted by Ahti
The total amount of damage you take during an encounter is way, way less important than minimizing your worst-case-scenario at specific times.

Those aren't even necessarily exclusive. Being able to Holy Shield during a Vezax style powerup could possibly add up to less damage overall anyways.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
But the bulk of my displeasure is not what this change does, but what it doesn't do. Ours remains the only hard-capped Mastery. Ours remains the only Mastery that becomes utterly useless and reforged out of at a very easily reachable point in the very near future. Without needing to hit a HoPo finisher to maintain Holy Shield there is now no incentive to NOT sit on HoPo until you can either WoG on cd or bank it for a spike unless you are having threat issues; the 20-second WoG cd was supposed to be there to incentivize us to use SotR and Inq after the initial threat build-up phase. This encourages WoG-exclusive HoPo dumping, and I hate WoG. I use it because if its there its useful, but it is not something I want to be balanced around. And at some point they WILL have to nerf our real tank stats to compensate for WoG's impact.


WoG is fine. We're "balanced" around its situational use.
The Holy Shield change isn't connected to an overall sweeping Mastery change at all. It's a minor tweak that made sense to do now and is something they've been wanting to do since Beta but put off due to the other changes happening at the time. The possible Mastery change got pushed back to 4.3 specifically because Mastery will not be an issue for this tier.

There are all perfectly logical calls to make on their part.

Do you think it's so awesome that you'll barely noticing it doing anything most of the time?


Oh, I'll notice it.

can someone point to a current fight where simply macroing it to go off every 30 seconds would not result in about the same benefit as having it as a separate key?


Every fight this tier has something interrupting things swinging at you at least that often. Whether that be the boss potentially being in the middle of casting something, or a time of lower damage followed by slightly higher damage that you will know about. Macroing it guarantees that you will be wasting it during these moments, whereas even just not macroing AND still using it as often as possible is going to net you more.

flames orders replaces his melee attacks with unblockable fire damage melee attacks. blow a cooldown and wait for the phase to end.
thats what i meant about useless during flames orders.


How the hell can you be this badly wrong? Flaming Destruction is appended onto his melee swings. You take the full melee swing damage and the full Burning Destruction damage when he swings during Flame's Orders. If you avoid his melee swing, Burning Destruction will still hit you.
Pay attention to the fights that you do, man.

[21:31:25.454] Cho'gall hits Thorsmalice Dodge
[21:31:26.793] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Thorsmalice 104855 (A: 42468, R: 18188)
[21:31:27.246] Cho'gall hits Thorsmalice Dodge
[21:31:28.376] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Thorsmalice 120406 (R: 37162)
[21:31:29.090] Cho'gall hits Thorsmalice 40629 (A: 1718, B: 18149)
[21:31:30.391] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Thorsmalice 69023 (A: 5825, R: 92405)
[21:31:30.900] Cho'gall hits Thorsmalice Absorb (17001)
[21:31:32.057] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Thorsmalice 75562 (A: 15953, R: 75320)
[21:31:32.711] Cho'gall hits Thorsmalice 30016 (B: 12864)
[21:31:33.994] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Thorsmalice 87580 (R: 72082)

the glyph of long word for paladins is a perfect example. do i want one big word of glory, or do i want half now, and half over time so that its likely i have less overhealing?


Glyph of the Long Word is bad.

Ehh... I know, I'm just not convinced that it's an issue. It would be if bosses were meleeing us for a huge percent of our health most of the time, but right now, they're not (Forgive if I'm wrong about heroic bosses) and I don't see it being a huge imbalance.


Short of Sinestra, who can swing into the 90k regions when she doesn't have the debuff that reduces her damage by 40%, and your healers are given infinite mana and a 100% haste buff to handle, the hardest hitter this tier is Cho'gall, and he's around the 50-60k mark on his normal swings, ramping up near the 80-90k mark during periods where you're supposed to cooldown or things go wrong, if you want a reference point.

Why would I want to take more damage most of the time, just to take slightly less during a small window?

Only the pretentious jack@sses who see their whole life's value wrapped up in how many buttons they press think this is a good change. It's a nerf and a pointless one.


Average damage taken during an encounter is a meaningless metric.
The "nerf" has a very real point. The point is to "make Paladins more interactive", or "have more control", and to slightly throttle the level of passive mitigation we'll be rocking into Firelands to keep us out of "too good" into just "pretty good". We're already in a very solid place as-is going into the patch.

5000 char limit should tell you how many chars need to be cut.
Edited by Slashlove on 6/17/2011 1:32 PM PDT
95 Blood Elf Paladin
14325
Those aren't even necessarily exclusive. Being able to Holy Shield during a Vezax style powerup could possibly add up to less damage overall anyways.


That's true. I don't think anyone can argue that saving a HS for an event 30 seconds in the future is an optimal thing to do. The fact is that it will work and be used like warriors SB. At times it will be more useful to use it on CD for less damage intake over time, and at times it will be more useful to save it for upcoming burst (sometimes both during the same encounter!).

I like the change just because I feel that tanks should be playing actively for their mitigation and not just get it all baked in. It adds a fun factor and overall increases the skill-cap for the spec.
85 Human Paladin
6435
Look - another pretentious jack@ss. And not even one with particularly good gear.


I can't believe you really just said that. You are telling a 359 ilevel 12/12 tank that he isn't wearing good gear, when you are 0/12 and only ilevel 353. Not really sure how your statement has any validity.

06/17/2011 01:31 PMPosted by Fbe
That's true. I don't think anyone can argue that saving a HS for an event 30 seconds in the future is an optimal thing to do. The fact is that it will work and be used like warriors SB. At times it will be more useful to use it on CD for less damage intake over time, and at times it will be more useful to save it for upcoming burst (sometimes both during the same encounter!).


Basically this. The best use of HS will always be a constantly changing thing based on mechanics, personal need, what cooldowns you have up, and healer mana, just to name a few. Not only does the change to HS provide a larger degree of controlled mitigation it also promotes a larger skill gap among Paladins. Sure there is already a small one because of WoG usage but that doesn't have a large impact, Holy Shield will.

Will there being a place where a on CD Holy Shield use be the best way to use it, maybe, I really wouldn't be surprised. In general though, this isn't true.

The reason people consider more cooldowns to be a good thing is because there is no skill gap and because nothing is going to two shot you. In Wrath you could sort of measure a tank based on his health because in order for you to get a really high health you had to be doing the correct content. Now that measuring stick is based on cooldown usage.

Tl;Dr
More cooldowns = Higher skill gap.
Edited by Xayton on 6/17/2011 1:48 PM PDT
85 Draenei Warrior
0
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1m1k5jv62710dr04/xe/?s=4491&e=4656&x=%28sourceName+%3D+%22Cho%27gall%22+and+targetName+%3D+%22Corpsetwo%22%29+or+spell+%3D+%22Flame%27s+Orders%22+or+spell+%3D+%22Flaming+Destruction%22

is hard mode, not normal. yes, in hard mode you would simply spam it.
100 Human Paladin
20740
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1m1k5jv62710dr04/xe/?s=4491&e=4656&x=%28sourceName+%3D+%22Cho%27gall%22+and+targetName+%3D+%22Corpsetwo%22%29+or+spell+%3D+%22Flame%27s+Orders%22+or+spell+%3D+%22Flaming+Destruction%22

is hard mode, not normal. yes, in hard mode you would simply spam it.


Maybe when it's on farm or you outgear it, but when you're working on progression you'll want to use it judiciously on some fights. Your average tank seeing Cho'gall for the first time with a 4.2 version of HS would be better off using it in flame orders (or when worship isn't interrupted quickly) rather than spamming/macroing it.
Edited by Lesaberisa on 6/17/2011 1:50 PM PDT
85 Draenei Warrior
0
06/17/2011 10:43 AMPosted by Fbe
Okay, so on my Pally tank I'm just gonna macro that to CS/HotR.


Why do people keep saying this?

It's exactly like how a Warrior tank would use Shield Block, and no warrior in his right mind has SB bound to Devastate/SS. You're literally just gimping your own survivability by macroing it into abilities. There are no encounters where spamming SB/HS on CD would provide optimal usage (As there are no encounters when you're being melee'd 100% of the time).

I guess if you believe that the only thing that matters is overall damage intake, you can go ahead and play sub-optimally. But in reality, the only thing that matters is timing your CDs effectively to allow healers to catch up, and you to live during large spike damage/low healer uptime.

this is incorrect. we do in fact bind SB to other keys. in my case i have it toggled with rend, and i do use it on cooldown and that is the best use for it, even with the addition of the spell damage cooldown, using it for melee is simply more optimal play.

HS is a different matter because it is specifically a rage sink for threat. our job isnt massive threat, its surviving.

the simple fact is that every encounter in current content was designed without warriors having a spell damage cooldown, so using shield block for that is simply not relevant. much better to avoid unmitigated melee damage spikes, than occasional magic damage spikes that you already plan for.
85 Human Paladin
6435
06/17/2011 01:48 PMPosted by Lesaberisa
Your average tank seeing Cho'gall for the first time with a 4.2 version of HS would be better off using it in flame orders (or when worship isn't interrupted quickly) rather than spamming/macroing it.


I'm going to take this idea and run with it a bit more. You could also very easily use HS for Flame Orders and if you are the add tank use it again for the adds (not a bad idea actually) and by the time you get back to Cho'gall you will have HS up again for when you need it. If you were to macro it to CS, odds are it will be on CD for when you need it because when you get back to Cho'gall you are probably attacking him again while waiting for Fury to wear off, you are wasting HS at that point.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755

is hard mode, not normal. yes, in hard mode you would simply spam it.


Flaming Destruction does not override melee swings in normal mode either. The only difference between Heroic and Normal is the Flame Elemental stacks.

[22:19:25.438] Cho'gall hits Nawtinight 17217 (A: 21539)
[22:19:26.676] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Nawtinight 16910 (R: 6110)
[22:19:27.237] Cho'gall hits Nawtinight 30555 (A: 15319)
[22:19:28.314] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Nawtinight 14752 (R: 9138)
[22:19:29.044] Cho'gall hits Nawtinight 48900
[22:19:30.290] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Nawtinight 18932 (A: 4022, R: 2949)
[22:19:30.836] Cho'gall hits Nawtinight Dodge
[22:19:31.902] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Nawtinight 21621 (A: 2275, R: 3070)
[22:19:32.668] Cho'gall hits Nawtinight 58586 (A: 1603)
[22:19:33.866] Cho'gall Flaming Destruction Nawtinight 19314 (A: 1566, R: 6036)

Really, know what the hell you're tanking.
Edited by Slashlove on 6/17/2011 2:01 PM PDT
100 Dwarf Warrior
18970

And it shouldn't be compared to warriors sheild block. Their ability has a 1 min CD and not 30 seconds. That changes a lot. It not only increases the penalty of on CD use of 20 seconds downtime to 50 second downtime, but it is now an ability that might be more optimized by lining it use up with forseeable damage intervals rather than just using it whenever you can.


The two are not comparable because of CD length (as others have noted, its the same) its because how they interact with other abilities.

Shield Block wears 4 hats. It give Warriors a chance to reliably reduce blockable physical attacks, boosts rage generation, a magic damage reducer and its a burst DPS/TPS tool. How a Warrior uses it is dependent on whatever he needs at the time. Imagine if Divine Protection lit Avenging Wrath at the same time. Then Pallies would be more like Warriors.

Holy Shield's strength is how it interacts with other abilities. With Holy Shield and 4PT12 its technically possible to buy 1m40s of extended damage reduction for a Paladin. More with exteriour cooldowns. Is this useful? Maybe. Its helpful when a healer stands in the fire and you need time to finish the fight.

More importantly you can combine it with other skills. Once a minute a Paladin can get 40/20% (or 20/40%) physical and magical reduction. Combine it with GbtL for a quick insurance against an incoming damage spike. Not too shabby in my opinion.

PS Standard cavaet. Having a 30s physical cooldown and a shield does not turn you into a Warrior. A Warrior runs to his opponents, a Paladin has his opponents come to him. Each has distinct tools to accomplish this as well as other distinct utility abilities.
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