We redesigned Holy Shield

90 Dwarf Paladin
12145
06/17/2011 01:31 PMPosted by Fbe
Those aren't even necessarily exclusive. Being able to Holy Shield during a Vezax style powerup could possibly add up to less damage overall anyways.


That's true. I don't think anyone can argue that saving a HS for an event 30 seconds in the future is an optimal thing to do. The fact is that it will work and be used like warriors SB. At times it will be more useful to use it on CD for less damage intake over time, and at times it will be more useful to save it for upcoming burst (sometimes both during the same encounter!).

I like the change just because I feel that tanks should be playing actively for their mitigation and not just get it all baked in. It adds a fun factor and overall increases the skill-cap for the spec.


I thought more and more about how, while I would mostly use HS on CD, there would be plenty of times where I would hold off on it. I realize that that in itself is a choice.

So yeah, I guess there *is some real decision making involved with using HS now. My bad.
95 Blood Elf Paladin
14325
06/17/2011 01:51 PMPosted by Xurk
this is incorrect. we do in fact bind SB to other keys. in my case i have it toggled with rend, and i do use it on cooldown and that is the best use for it, even with the addition of the spell damage cooldown, using it for melee is simply more optimal play.

V
in his right mind


I mean, it's kind of understandable that a lazy paladin macro's it, because he has a multitude of other CDs to use. But for a warrior, wasting an important CD when you're lacking them to begin with seems silly.

Anyways, my whole argument is that it is absolutely sub-optimal to play with SB or HS macro'd. If it works for you, cool, doesn't mean it's the proper way to use it.

I thought more and more about how, while I would mostly use HS on CD, there would be plenty of times where I would hold off on it. I realize that that in itself is a choice.

So yeah, I guess there *is some real decision making involved with using HS now. My bad.


That's my point really. It adds "interesting" (subjective) decisions to a paladins mitigation. I have always been a fan of the warrior model of tanking, and I really don't mind that they're turning in that direction.
Edited by Fbe on 6/17/2011 2:12 PM PDT
85 Draenei Warrior
0
point being though, you dont "need" it. the question isnt when is it needed, because its NEVER needed in current content, its when would it be most optimal to use it, and that is a much harder question to answer.

again, look at the list of bosses.:
halfus. doesnt matter which tank you are, you want to use it as soon as you engage, then again any time its off CD, since damage is a constant here. all extra damage here is spell damage

val and ther. again, use it as soon as you engage, only time you would not use it would be transitions. all the "extra" damage here is spell damage.

ascendant council. first fight where timing helps. and it usually matches up pretty well regardless. its slightly wasted when you are dealing with glaciate and flame torrent and disperse. its useful to save it for harden skin. its slightly wasted on gravity crush.
overall though, you would be hard pressed to actually lower your impact on healers with the exception of harden skin. every other use is pretty stable melee damage that isnt threatening.

Cho'gall. plenty of discussion already.

Magmaw. some pretty obvious lulls, but the real threat is spell damage based.

omnitron. some pretty obvious lulls, but no serious melee issues either

malorak. outside of phase switches, and scorching blast channel, on cooldown use.

atramedes. obvious air phase and sonic breath lull.

chimareon. pointless.

neferian. aside from not using it during a breath attack, spam is going to be the best use. Add tank might see more use waiting for adds to wake up.


so yes, you can get some minor benefit by waiting occasionally. but in all of these fights, the only place you are really going to make a difference to your healers is cho'gall. every other place you are only avoiding typical damage intake.

arguing that using it to lower melee during a spell damage burst is sorta pointless. yes, its of some minor help. but its not enough to really save you if your healers arent already on the ball anyway. in most fights we are talking about 4-12k damage. and even then, unlike shield block, there is no guarantee of it working at all.
Once people mastery cap, then it gets more important to plan.
95 Blood Elf Paladin
14325
06/17/2011 02:10 PMPosted by Xurk
point being though, you dont "need" it. the question isnt when is it needed, because its NEVER needed in current content, its when would it be most optimal to use it, and that is a much harder question to answer.


I'm not going to quote your whole post, but I will vehemently disagree with you on the possible benefits of SB/HS not used on CD.

It is a HUGE factor in both Chimaeron and Conclave fights. And in others, its better not waste it during downtime (Magmaw, Nefarian, Maloriak, Chimaeron, Atramedes, Omni, Halfus.... oh wait, that's pretty much all of them. You get the point).
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
There was a blue post stating specifically that this change was not in a vacuum, and was part of a much-needed Mastery overhaul for Paladins, and that other tanks would be adjusted to us. Yet here we are: this change has been left in a vacuum. Our Mastery is still doomed to fail us soon. We are still headed towards being balanced around WoG.


It is part of a much-needed Mastery overhaul for everyone - it slightly reduces our passive mitigation. The difference is that since Mastery won't be an issue this tier, they're fine with where this puts us in Firelands to do those changes later when it's actually needed.

We've always been balanced around situational use of WoG btw.

Off-set pieces are almost always able to be cobbled together to make a more efficient set than full tier. Blizzard said that we couldn't block-cap in T-11. There are people block-capping in T-11. If they were so blatantly, provably wrong about T-11, which they had a very long time to prepare for, what makes you think that they'll nail T-12 which is being approached on a road of quicksand?


Actually what they said was that we wouldn't block cap without making sacrifices, and as long as that's the case, they're fine with it. And we do have to make sacrifices, some that are very relevant, especially from a progression point of view. While the higher amount of stats from 391 gear will reduce that tradeoff slightly, it will still be there.

The most relevant sacrifice is Stamina. You can take a 102.4% set and go to bat against Heroic Al'Akir, or Sinestra, etc. and succeed, but the Stamina on those fights is more important.

I don't support the playstyle, because it will end up getting us balanced around all-WoG/all-the-time. I am opposed to this because it will get our real tanking stats nerfed to account for our self-healing that warriors and druids do not have to the degree that WoG gives us. It is bad game design, but if there is no need to use SotR and/or Inquisition for threat or for their damage to beat a tight enrage timer, then straight-WoG use will provide maximum survivability, and it will be used. It will be used prevalently. And the prevalence of that use will get us nerfed in areas we do not want to be nerfed in.


Lol no.
Edited by Slashlove on 6/17/2011 2:30 PM PDT
1 Draenei Paladin
0
06/17/2011 02:26 PMPosted by Slashlove
Lol no.


My thoughts exactly.
85 Human Paladin
7460
imo, it's the best stop gap measure that Blizzard could come up with while pushing the time when Blizzard will have to address mastery for Paladins and to a lesser extent warriors a bit further down the line.

It's a pretty nice ability for mitigating incoming physical damage when you really *need* extra mitigation. At the cost of having slightly less mitigation than paladins have now. It seems to be a fair trade off.
1 Draenei Paladin
0
06/17/2011 02:39 PMPosted by Feanorion


My thoughts exactly.


I wasn't aware you had any.


As is always the case, Fean, you lack perspective. People doing the hardest content in the game are telling you that you are wrong, and you refuse to believe it because your incredibly narrow spectrum of experience prevents you from realizing the reality of situations.

When you play with people who could be considered mediocre on their best days it's hard to paint a picture of how the game actually works when your whole team is at least semi-competent. You'll find that sitting on Holy Power for nothing but WoG is not only non-optimal due to competent DPS actually challenging your threat, but it is also not even necessary due to competent healers realizing that the tank is a priority heal target.
100 Dwarf Warrior
18845

chimareon. pointless.


After doing H Chim, I came to this realization: It kinda sucks that Pallies don't have the new HS yet to soak the Double attacks.
100 Dwarf Warrior
18845


After doing H Chim, I came to this realization: It kinda sucks that Pallies don't have the new HS yet to soak the Double attacks.


If you do the encounter correctly, you don't need it. At all.


The difference between using 4PT11 and using shoulders that are actually good is marginal. Yet sometimes a marginal change may be worth it. More so on an encounter which hinges on a tiny change in health. Performed perfectly, it may not be an issue but nothing is ever performed correctly.

Let's see here. A short, complete list of imperfection:
- Healer temporarily gains the Down's.
- Tornados
- Thunderstorms
- America doesn't know how to generate electricity properly
- Anti-Virus kicked in
- Cats
- Dog peed on the carpet
- Sorry, there's a bat upstairs
- Comcast sucks
- A different, marginally more reliable ISP still sucks
- Room mate is DLing massive quantities of pr0n
- Pizza
- etc

A little bit of extra bought time here and there when you need it is sometimes useful because no one plays with robotic perfection all the time. It may not matter all the time but it does matter some of the time.

PS Not using a short physical cooldown against an obvious incoming physical damage spike is lazy and stupid.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
"We redesigned Holy Shield, partially because paladin mitigation was going to be too good in the Firelands raid, but also because many paladins (though of course not all) told us they wanted a more dynamic rotation and less passive mitigation."

We just didn't ask the 99% of prot pallys that were raid leading if they thought this was a good idea...pipe down Theck ;)


I saw that thread of Thecks, he admitted that this nerf was basically about the top 5 % of paladin players. Way to go for unjustified nerfs
85 Human Paladin
6250
After reading a few thing let me say something ...

It is not a great 20% damage reduction if you compare to 4.1 .. its a 10% damage reduction. Keep in mind we lose our 40% passive block value down to 30%. So when ppl say "when pop at the right time its a nice 20% reduction" .. well this just a 10% more damage reduction compare to 4.1. If that 10% more damage reduction make such a huge different to kill nef or Chimearon maybe you should double check what you're doing right now in 4.1 cause it wont help you that much in 4.2 seriously ...

"Macroing" it for most fight will be more that enough and simply switch the macro out when you need to "control it" for some fight (like chim double attack). unfortunately we got no "additional" bonus other that increase block value so why not proc it every time its up "except" for some nasty burst like chim double attack ? (/point and lol at the guy saying not macroing it will help for Atramendes ... )

EDIT : What I will do .. macro it to CS and have 2 hotkey for CS .. my "main" CS will be the macro one and assign an other key for a "CS with no macro" so when I need to control it I simply change the way I press my button for the incoming burst that's all. HotR will have it macro all the time .. If i Tank 3+ adds on me I want it up asap anyway.
Edited by Earthquakes on 6/17/2011 4:39 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
06/17/2011 10:27 AMPosted by Balthius


Nope.


Okay, so on my Pally tank I'm just gonna macro that to CS/HotR.

Upside: maximum uptime

Downside: I might have to wait 20 seconds before I can use it again and rely on the rest of my *more powerful* tanking CD's to handle bad bursts of damage.

Not a whole lot of choice involved there.


Pretty much this, considering everything else we have to keep track of its the best plan.
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
I saw that thread of Thecks, he admitted that this nerf was basically about the top 5 % of paladin players. Way to go for unjustified nerfs


Most numbers and mechanics changes are about what people doing it right do, not about what people who do it wrong do.
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