We redesigned Holy Shield

85 Blood Elf Paladin
9375
I cant remeber exactly but wasnt this how holy shield was in wrath. Idk what it did exactly but it was part of your rotation. Except it couldnt fall off.
85 Orc Warlock
12800
06/17/2011 09:56 PMPosted by Waytoocrazy
I cant remeber exactly but wasnt this how holy shield was in wrath. Idk what it did exactly but it was part of your rotation. Except it couldnt fall off.

It increased your block chance and caused reflective Holy Damage. This is not like how it was in Wrath.
85 Human Paladin
6250
It would be cool if they add "holy damage" to Holy shield via a talent or a major glyph. It wouldn't change the overall mitigation and it would be cool and a nice tool for AoE tanking.
Edited by Earthquakes on 6/18/2011 5:47 AM PDT
85 Human Paladin
4185
No

Vengeance already acts as a damage intake into threat gain mechanic. We don't need to be further balanced around a mechanic that doesn't support tank swaps, aggro shifts and new mobs.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
06/17/2011 04:45 PMPosted by Slashlove
I saw that thread of Thecks, he admitted that this nerf was basically about the top 5 % of paladin players. Way to go for unjustified nerfs


Most numbers and mechanics changes are about what people doing it right do, not about what people who do it wrong do.


Except[t for the fact that Theck admitted it, this is pure nerf for anything but heroic raid tanks, so using your logic any tank that is not a heroic raid tank is "doing it wrong"

If there is a heroic fail Slash you're it.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
5925
It does not add more buttons to push in our rotation,


Pushing a button you didn't push before is not having more buttons to push? Can I ask in what universe this even remotely makes sense.


It will be macroed as an average reduction aide, not as a cooldown. It is not significant enough to warrant cooldown status especially when I have far superior cooldowns, and many of them, to use in it's stead.

The only area where it may, and I say may, help is heroic Cho'gall during double attacks.


You wanna know what's clunky? Having to use blood runes for DR but not wanting to use blood runes. That is clunky. Nothing a paladin does is clunky. You press a button, and the effect it causes is exactly the effect you want. The rotation flows with some spells improving other spells and some spells making other spells actually usable.


WoG on an off timer that does not blend with the rotation is clunky. Adding this in as yet one more off timer button adds more clunk. Rotation should be smooth and flowing, not something that causes one to pause, hesitate, or employ separate timers for aspects of such. Currently it's too weak to be a cooldown, and too far out of sink (because of the timer) to smoothly fit into the rotation. That pretty much defines clunky.


What was dynamic about CS, something, CS, something, CS, WoG? What was dynamic about our spec defined spell being used when about half your other abilities were on CD? What was dynamic about having absolutely no reason to not mindlessly hit the next button you know was going to be next 5 mins beforehand?


Our rotation was smooth and even. We had three situational rotations with both front end and back end loaded spells for AOE or Single targe. We had a back end healer in WoG. That gave us two front end situational choices and three back end choices that all fit nicely into the rotation. We had short CDs to lace in for damage spikes, our hands as raid utility, DG that engaged the entire raid without range limit, and Holly radiance to use on our melee or ranged in close proximity.

If you played the paladin correctly and utilized him to his max potential as a raid tank rather then just focused on holding agro and spamming WOG it was very interesting and very dynamic. It is no longer that at all. We are back to the mundane, one rotation for all situations, model with a few clunky mechanics thrown in for what seems no other reason except to appease the "we need more buttons to push" crowd, regardless of what those buttons do or what they do not enhance about the class.

lolwut? The paladin playstyle is the best it has ever been. You are not even making sense.


You are not playing the same class that I am then. Its mundane and simplistic. It is back to the single rotation for any situation. I can tank any situation right now while running my raid, directing every movement of the raid without any real thought. Throwing in another button to push does not make it "fun and interesting". Trying to force this square peg into the round hole of our rotation does not make it more dynamic. Trying to force it as a CD when it is inferior to our CDs does not make it more dynamic either.

We are slowly moving to the "whack-a-mole" model of hitting the next button that comes up. That is not fun and it is not dynamic. I would suggest an entire overhaul at this point, but it was already done, and then un-done


Thank you for proving all the insults I have made at you. It is not really ad hominem when you call someone awful not to disprove their claims (reasoning and logic do a fine enough job at that) but because they are just awful.

Macro it to everything. Play poorly. Half ass it because you can. Just don't come to the forums misusing simple words like clunky and dynamic in a poor attempt to make a point. At least try to make sense when you converse with people, at the very least Fean is kind enough to do that.


Ranting and insulting is going to do little more then get you reported. I'm not intimidated by it at all. ;p

If the numbers prove out, that maximum up time grants the greatest benefit overall, which I believe it will, then not macroeing it when you have far superior CDs to use in high risk situations just to justify using a sub par ability would be considered playing one's pally poorly far more then macroing it. There is no reason to let this sit when it could be mitigating average damage just so that I can use it instead of Divine Protection and pretend that it has a valid use as a CD.
Edited by Blackardin on 6/18/2011 7:29 AM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Except[t for the fact that Theck admitted it, this is pure nerf for anything but heroic raid tanks, so using your logic any tank that is not a heroic raid tank is "doing it wrong"

If there is a heroic fail Slash you're it.


For "Normal Raid Tanks doing it right", the change won't register over the variation of random noise that comes from the die roll that accompanies each swing or attack that a boss uses on the tank. It is a mathematical nerf to one of the most meaningless metrics in content right now.

It's people that do it wrong that will actually be affected by it. Well, or they'll think they are and come to the forums to complain about how after X went wrong, and Y mistake was made, they got overkilled by 5k and it's Blizzard's fault. The only other people really affected by it are people who simply found a way to run out of keybinds/action bar space.

BTW, lol.

It will be macroed as an average reduction aide, not as a cooldown. It is not significant enough to warrant cooldown status especially when I have far superior cooldowns, and many of them, to use in it's stead.


If you macro it, you will waste it. Hit the button as often as possible while using a brain to ensure that you don't even waste it during the middle of a cast or going into downtime if you want that average reduction aspect of it. That's just basic common sense.

The only situation you'll actually benefit from macroing it for general play is if you also bind a modifier override to allow you to hit whatever it's macroed to without using it and keeping the ability on its own bound/available, but at that point you're wasting more effort to just hit the button the way you should anyway.

You are not playing the same class that I am then. Its mundane and simplistic. It is back to the single rotation for any situation.


You're doing it wrong.

We are slowly moving to the "whack-a-mole" model of hitting the next button that comes up. That is not fun and it is not dynamic. I would suggest an entire overhaul at this point, but it was already done, and then un-done


The nature of the mechanics we've gained pretty much guarantees that will never happen as long as you care about playing to the best of your ability. And the nature of what other classes are capable of means that you won't get away with not trying to play to the best of your ability. You might be able to get away with underperforming if the other people in your raid are underperforming, but that's not really what Blizzard bases their changes on.
Edited by Slashlove on 6/18/2011 9:08 AM PDT
80 Draenei Shaman
1060
Regardless of advantages Vrs disadvantages that this thread appears to be heavily concentrating on, has anyone bothered to test on PTR if HS is interacting with all other paladin 'on demand' CD's and not doing anything 'whacky' with physical and magical damage reductions.
75 Troll Druid
670
06/18/2011 07:22 AMPosted by Blackardin
one rotation for all situations,


What? No?
80 Blood Elf Paladin
1420
06/18/2011 09:17 AMPosted by Nefratiti
Regardless of advantages Vrs disadvantages that this thread appears to be heavily concentrating on, has anyone bothered to test on PTR if HS is interacting with all other paladin 'on demand' CD's and not doing anything 'whacky' with physical and magical damage reductions.


I haven't heard a peep about how it's working out on the PTRs. Very curious if the 30 second CD on it is making for smooth play with other CDs.
1 Draenei Paladin
0
06/18/2011 11:50 AMPosted by Marrs
I haven't heard a peep about how it's working out on the PTRs. Very curious if the 30 second CD on it is making for smooth play with other CDs.


What? What does this even mean? You guys are running out of things to complain about.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
5925
If you macro it, you will waste it. Hit the button as often as possible while using a brain to ensure that you don't even waste it during the middle of a cast or going into downtime if you want that average reduction aspect of it. That's just basic common sense.

The only situation you'll actually benefit from macroing it for general play is if you also bind a modifier override to allow you to hit whatever it's macroed to without using it and keeping the ability on its own bound/available, but at that point you're wasting more effort to just hit the button the way you should anyway.


Not sure what you are infering here, but there is not a whole lot of challenge in working this. Multi button binding, double tap skills for latency and GCD timing. Its not on the gcd, so there is no cast time delay. Secondary rotation bindings for planned use. Setting an optimal macro situation will not be difficult and losing a half second a couple of times during a fight will not be significant enough of a loss, especially when compared to holding to use in specific cases.

The only question will be which is more optimal to do. I'm speculating, but I'll wait for the spreadsheat guys to prove that out,. I tend to doubt that they will find it to be advantagous as a CD over max up time, especially with the availability and quantity of the more powerful CDs we already have. We do not need 7 CDs.

You're doing it wrong.


Though I appreciate the pontificating and assumptions, you are definitely not playing the same class as I am if you believe that our current rotation challenges us. There is nothing difficult or complex about it. This does not help that and does not make it more dynamic, it makes it more cumbersome.

The nature of the mechanics we've gained pretty much guarantees that will never happen as long as you care about playing to the best of your ability. And the nature of what other classes are capable of means that you won't get away with not trying to play to the best of your ability. You might be able to get away with underperforming if the other people in your raid are underperforming, but that's not really what Blizzard bases their changes on.


You must be bad because you don't agree with me? ;p Its no great challenge to play the pally to optimal. Even doing so while leading raids, directing the fights, and tanking one can still optimize our utility and CDs. Not a great challenge. I've been away for about three months and am still looking at 11 of 12, dropping 9 in the three or four weeks that I've been back.

This has nothing to do with "good or bad" play but the nature of the mechanics and resorting to that is more a red-herring then anything else. The "nature of the mechanics" are moving in that direction with both this and WoG on CD. Won't happen in totality, but definitely moving toward that flavor.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
5925
06/18/2011 09:38 AMPosted by Foiblesqt
one rotation for all situations,


What? No?


We were promised a dynamic rotation that would vary with situation. This was worked on through the entire beta, and apparently tested. We started with that rotation with situational choice on both front and back end. CS, Hammer on the front end, Inq, SoTR, WoG on the back end. Our spec was suppose to provide us with "flavor" depending on our desire and situation.

All fell apart due to lack of forethought and testing. We are now seeing a mish-mash of quick "fixes" and changes that are basically quilting a helter-skelter rotation and skill set with one thing affecting or attempting to fix another. It is becoming more and more "choppy", but still not accomplishing that one goal that they were after, and that we desired.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
5925
06/18/2011 09:17 AMPosted by Nefratiti
Regardless of advantages Vrs disadvantages that this thread appears to be heavily concentrating on, has anyone bothered to test on PTR if HS is interacting with all other paladin 'on demand' CD's and not doing anything 'whacky' with physical and magical damage reductions.


Its been on PTR for about a month so one would assume its been tested. However, the "new paladin model" was on the ptr through the entire beta so I would not get my hopes up too high. I think this is one of those "test the waters" on the ptr, and get the real data after release and adjust then.

They have already stated that they have the current build as a "fall back" if it fails, and that this is the first step in mastery balancing. They've also stated that, once this balance is achieved they will then balance the rest of the tanks around paladins.

Sounds like a plan, but it always does on paper. If I were the other tanks I would be very afraid right now. ;p
90 Blood Elf Paladin
5955
"We redesigned Holy Shield "
So we can see what it will look like after we redisign Crit, block for warriors and make it a cd.
Edited by Advancezero on 6/19/2011 9:18 AM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Not sure what you are infering here, but there is not a whole lot of challenge in working this. Multi button binding, double tap skills for latency and GCD timing. Its not on the gcd, so there is no cast time delay. Secondary rotation bindings for planned use. Setting an optimal macro situation will not be difficult and losing a half second a couple of times during a fight will not be significant enough of a loss, especially when compared to holding to use in specific cases.


"at that point you're wasting more effort to just hit the button the way you should anyway."

The only question will be which is more optimal to do. I'm speculating, but I'll wait for the spreadsheat guys to prove that out,. I tend to doubt that they will find it to be advantagous as a CD over max up time, especially with the availability and quantity of the more powerful CDs we already have. We do not need 7 CDs.


The answer to that will be that it depends on the situation. Hitting it like clockwork every 30 seconds will be suboptimal, and delaying it too long all the time will be suboptimal. It'll be a choice to make every time it comes up again as to when you want to use it.

Though I appreciate the pontificating and assumptions, you are definitely not playing the same class as I am if you believe that our current rotation challenges us. There is nothing difficult or complex about it. This does not help that and does not make it more dynamic, it makes it more cumbersome.

...
Its no great challenge to play the pally to optimal. Even doing so while leading raids, directing the fights, and tanking one can still optimize our utility and CDs. Not a great challenge


I'm sorry (not) - but you said we're back to the "single rotation for any situation". We most certainly are not. If you actually believe that is the case and are in fact doing that, you are most definitely doing it wrong.

It's not a great challenge to the level where you're juggling 3.0 Kitty type mechanics, but it's not meant to be. It was meant to lift out of 9-6-9-6 and 9-3-9 type actual rotations for good play, and it's done that spendidly.

This has nothing to do with "good or bad" play but the nature of the mechanics and resorting to that is more a red-herring then anything else. The "nature of the mechanics" are moving in that direction with both this and WoG on CD. Won't happen in totality, but definitely moving toward that flavor.


No, the nature of our mechanics means that unless they totally revert everything they've done, we simply cannot go back to where a priority queue gets simplified into a full out rotation. Holy Power and Grand Crusader mechanics guarantee that.

I really don't know what you're smoking if you think otherwise.
Community Manager
On the topic of who wanted this change, we’re just in a better position than players to get a sense for what a wide variety of paladins are asking for across the world. Players are most familiar with what their friends on their own realm are thinking, or what they read on the forums they frequent. Those are typically fairly small sample sizes. And I don't mean that as a slight against anyone in this thread who disagrees with our decisions. It's just the nature of the way in which data can be collected.

The more salient point though is that this isn’t a decision-making process that is heavily influenced by polling. The change made was a suggestion we saw several times, considered, and decided we agreed with. We know there are players who disagree with the decision, which to be fair, is the outcome of every single design decision we make. We think the most fair point is that some tanks already have enough going on, and as we suggested in the recent Blood DK discussion, we’re considering options to let players opt out of complexity at their discretion.

As far as Protection paladin mastery goes, one solution we like, as we alluded to before, is to split Protection’s mastery into multiple components so that hitting the “hard cap” is less of a hard cap. There are two problems with this design. First, it would feel a lot like the warrior mastery, and we know some of you want to be less like warriors, not more. Secondly, it would be a huge nerf to Protection survival overall. We could compensate for it elsewhere, but you will see a lot of players upset about the nerf -- players who liked stacking mastery to the cap and then being able to focus on other stats. We looked a lot at the paladin gear for Firelands and concluded that while it will be easier to max out mastery, there won’t be so much of it that paladins get frustrated when mastery gear drops. It might let them swap out a few other pieces or use fewer gems. We could have the problem again in the next raiding tier, but we have ample time to consider our options before that time.

"We redesigned Holy Shield, partially because paladin mitigation was going to be too good in the Firelands raid, but also because many paladins (though of course not all) told us they wanted a more dynamic rotation and less passive mitigation."

We just didn't ask the 99% of prot pallys that were raid leading if they thought this was a good idea...pipe down Theck ;)
85 Human Paladin
6435
Zarhym, you are a busy bee today. Two responses in one day <3

06/20/2011 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
We looked a lot at the paladin gear for Firelands and concluded that while it will be easier to max out mastery, there won’t be so much of it that paladins get frustrated when mastery gear drops. It might let them swap out a few other pieces or use fewer gems. We could have the problem again in the next raiding tier, but we have ample time to consider our options before that time.


This sort of leaves me with one question. Are you guys okay with Paladins block capping? You guys tend to bounce between the two ideas of "we are okay with it" and "we don't want it."
Edited by Xayton on 6/20/2011 2:43 PM PDT
48 Gnome Priest
360
06/20/2011 02:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
As far as Protection paladin mastery goes, one solution we like, as we alluded to before, is to split Protection’s mastery into multiple components so that hitting the “hard cap” is less of a hard cap. There are two problems with this design. First, it would feel a lot like the warrior mastery, and we know some of you want to be less like warriors, not more.


Wouldn't using the second half to buff Holy Power finishers make it less warriorish? Your Shield of the Righteous hits harder, your Inquisition stays up longer, your Word of Glory heals for more?

Just a random thought I haven't thought through at all yet.
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