We redesigned Holy Shield (Cont)

85 Human Paladin
6435
Start of thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2674990118
End of thread: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2674990118?page=26

Last post.

Try staying on topic, and quit complaining about someone's gear when you have nothing to say about the point of the thread


Why not respond to something such as:

Actually, when your response to a comparison of the "cumbersomeness" of activated HS to Rebuke had no merit and you instead felt compelled to call me a chump would be closer to the point at which one of us had nothing else left to say.
Edited by Xayton on 6/21/2011 1:53 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14720
This thread really exploded while I was away...

Still tons of bad paladins macroing in HS? Check.
People think overall damage actually matters in the current tier? Check.
People think "uptime" is an appropriate judging variable for HS? Check.

Thread is going places.

like DS timing, its a lot of work for little real gain. spamming it as a keybound ability vs using it intelligently, isnt likely to show up in parses. (is my guess) unless we get a new shear/saberlash boss that we can time the attacks for.


You say it's little "real" gain, but I think you've got it backwards. In the way you stated it, the gain you get from DS timing is overall very little (which may be true). But it's honestly not what matters. The "real" gain comes from you being alive (and saving your healers mana, if it actually matters). That timing DS could have could have just saved you from an otherwise untimely death, and probably a wipe.

That's really my gripe with this whole argument. People tend to give way to much credibility to overall damage taken and "uptime" on abilities, and not enough to the player for using abilities effectively. I mean, as soon as encounters are balanced so healers are running on empty simply due to tank healing, I might change my tone. But right now, overall damage is a very moot point.
Edited by Fbe on 6/21/2011 2:13 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Warrior
0
add a link if you could please.

i still contend the issue with new holy shield is that its not really effective not to simply spam it.

since its 1/3rd uptime max, most fights, melee is delayed slightly with melee attacks, but generally its still pretty normal melee damage intake. the only time you would "save" holy shield, is generally times you cannot attack anyway, so saving it isnt a choice, its automatic. (ie many transitions are non-combat transitions)

like DS timing, its a lot of work for little real gain. spamming it as a keybound ability vs using it intelligently, isnt likely to show up in parses. (is my guess) unless we get a new shear/saberlash boss that we can time the attacks for.
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85 Human Paladin
6435
06/21/2011 01:51 PMPosted by Xurk
add a link if you could please.


Done.
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75 Troll Druid
670
I wish Mending was more useful. I really like the animation :(
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85 Human Paladin
8770
I still maintain that blizzard needs to listen not just to people that tank raids, but to the people that tank PUG heroics, a role so few people would take that blizzard had to bribe people to do so.

If you're finding paladin tanking boring this expansion, and the rotation too rigid, and asking for things to be "dynamic," it's probably because you run with players you can trust and that know their roles and fulfill them. Run PUG heroics with undergeared healers, DPS that outgear you and are trying to compete to top the DPS meter, people that don't know their class, or don't know the fights, and suddenly the rotation won't seem so rigid and the role will feel a lot more dynamic.

If you do all that, and still find paladin tanking boring, odds are you're a better-than-average player. Well, I'm just average, and I don't have amazing hand-eye coordination or mental reflexes. It makes me grumpy to think I'll have to add something else to my keybinds to manage on top of what I've already got. Call me a casual, call me a bad... I'm paying too, and there are more average players than above-average.
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85 Human Paladin
6435
06/21/2011 02:12 PMPosted by Mércy
Run PUG heroics with undergeared healers, DPS that outgear you and are trying to compete to top the DPS meter, people that don't know their class, or don't know the fights, and suddenly the rotation won't seem so rigid and the role will feel a lot more dynamic.


The only reason the rotation seems dynamic is because there is no real AoE rotation. You just mash what ever buttons you can.
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85 Human Paladin
8770
The only reason the rotation seems dynamic is because there is no real AoE rotation. You just mash what ever buttons you can.


I'm not talking about rotation, I'm talking about overall tanking as a paladin. A good, smooth PUG heroic has never put me to sleep or left me feeling bored with my role as the tank.



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06/21/2011 02:12 PMPosted by Mércy
I still maintain that blizzard needs to listen not just to people that tank raids, but to the people that tank PUG heroics,


And you need to understand that this change has little to no effect on those players who don't raid and just pug heroics. 'Normal' Heroics are tuned for players with an average ilvl of 329, you are sporting an average ilvl of 355. You outgear the content to a major degree (and so do many players), and the gap that you outgear it is going to grow next week.

You, and other players like you can ignore Holy Shield and will notice no change to your survivability in 5-man heroics.
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85 Human Paladin
8770
06/21/2011 02:25 PMPosted by Mithsploit
And for your own comfort, you should know that even if you ignore HS entirely (don't use it at all), my understanding is that it's only a ~4% overall damage reduction nerf, and for the content you're concerned with you probably won't even notice and can just macro it into your CS/HotR and forget about it.


That is what I'm concerned about. I come through fights by the skin of my teeth frequently because either I got a PUG healer that didn't know what they were doing, or I got DPS that didn't know what they were doing and that overworked the healer. (Or, occasionally, because I goofed and hit the wrong keybind at the wrong time.)

If I can still tank heroic content and not see any appreciable difference in the fights, then I won't mind the change. If it is detrimental to my performance, though, it's definitely going to be frustrating.
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85 Draenei Warrior
0
06/21/2011 01:56 PMPosted by Zapwidget
While mostly true, running around without a weapon enchant isn't going to make a notable difference. Doesn't stop me from being a dunce for doing it though. (I'll get it enchanted before raid time, I swear!)

the difference to me is this.

i can look at world of logs. i can pull up a fight, and for almost all enchants, i can point to an effect.

for something like shield cooldown timing, my fear is simply this:
the really good player is going to know when to spam and when to save.
the almost good player will end up spamming too often, or saving too often.
the bad player is going to spam so he doesnt have to deal with it.

and your damage taken is going to look like:
95% normal.
96-105% normal.
100% normal.

at the end of the day, its going to be VERY difficult for tanks to prove they are using it effectively. you will have to look at the graphed data and see less peaks than non-spamming tanks, and even then, spamming tanks have a 15% ish chance to get it right anyway!
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85 Human Paladin
8770
06/21/2011 02:52 PMPosted by Mithsploit
As has been noted, you appreciably outgear heroic dungeons, even ZA/ZG. The average damage reduction nerf associated with this change will be, for all intents and purposes, unnoticable to you and will almost certainly not affect your performance in that content.


Your definition of outgear and mine are obviously different. If I can still get multiple upgrades from the content, I don't outgear it.

Edit: I'm referring to the troll dungeons. I should have made that clear. Yes, I can get through regular heroics just fine and don't expect to have a problem, it's the ZG/ZA fights I'd be concerned about.

In any event, we've gone off topic. :P My original post, and the one that people quarreled with, was a request that blizzard just baldly state why they're doing something, and not claim it's because people are asking for it. If people asked for a more dynamic tanking rotation for two years, but only get it now, when blizzard isn't comfortable with how much damage they're mitigating in the new raid, then it's obviously the new raid the change is being made for, not because people are asking for it.
Edited by Mércy on 6/21/2011 3:11 PM PDT
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As has been noted, you appreciably outgear heroic dungeons, even ZA/ZG. The average damage reduction nerf associated with this change will be, for all intents and purposes, unnoticable to you and will almost certainly not affect your performance in that content.


Your definition of outgear and mine are obviously different. If I can still get multiple upgrades from the content, I don't outgear it.


It doesn't matter what your definition is, 'normal' 5-man heroics are tuned for players with an average ilvl of 329. You have an average ilvl of 355 and an equipped ilvl of 350, erego, you outgear the content you are doing.
Edited by Brohk on 6/21/2011 3:06 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
14005
06/21/2011 01:10 PMPosted by Marrs
I completely understand where you're coming from and have from the beginning of this change, I just don't know if having this many CDs feels right to me as a tank. What this HS change will basically amount to is having another trinket slot. And that's fine, but I'd much rather have Inquisition mean something for us and god forbid we had a legitimate reason to stack hit or expertise.


I'd love to have a reason to care about threat stats, but that gets into a side discussion about how to "fix" Vengeance, which is outside the scope of this thread.

I don't see any problem with having another cooldown. I've run into a lot of cases where I wish I had another survivability button to push, because GAnK/AD/DP are all required for predictable bursts. Holy Shield gives me that button.

Is it possible to give a tank too many cooldowns? Sure, but I don't think we're there yet. If we had 10 or 15 cooldowns to juggle, that would be excessive. But 3 to 5 feels about right (plus potion, healthstone, but those are once-per-fight).

HS fills a neat niche - the cooldown is short, so it's not something you feel concerned about "saving" for the right time, and it's strong enough to make a meaningful difference without being as strong as GAnK or glyphed DP. I don't plan on "juggling" Holy Shield as a cooldown, because I don't plan on monitoring its cooldown the way I do with GAnK/AD/DP. I'm just gonna hit it when I feel a few melee attacks are going to be dangerous. It'll generally be up by the next time I feel threatened, and if not I'll remember it's on cooldown because it's only been 10-15 seconds.
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85 Human Paladin
8770
HS fills a neat niche - the cooldown is short, so it's not something you feel concerned about "saving" for the right time, and it's strong enough to make a meaningful difference without being as strong as GAnK or glyphed DP. I don't plan on "juggling" Holy Shield as a cooldown, because I don't plan on monitoring its cooldown the way I do with GAnK/AD/DP. I'm just gonna hit it when I feel a few melee attacks are going to be dangerous. It'll generally be up by the next time I feel threatened, and if not I'll remember it's on cooldown because it's only been 10-15 seconds.


Clearly they need to have you on as a community manager, because you just managed to make this change sound very user-friendly and non-threatening. ;)
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