We redesigned Holy Shield (Cont)

85 Human Paladin
6435
06/24/2011 12:58 PMPosted by Lurnmechanix
Do other tank classes have this many self cooldowns? I seriously do not know.


Dks sort of do.
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85 Gnome Death Knight
7355
06/24/2011 01:13 PMPosted by Xayton
Do other tank classes have this many self cooldowns? I seriously do not know.


Dks sort of do.


IBF (3 min/50%)
Boneshield (1 min/20%)
AMS (45 seconds/ 75% magic reduction)
VB (1 min/30% boost to healing received)
Rune Tap (30 sec/10% heal)
Army of the Dead (10 min/ dodge+parry % reduction)
Ghoul (2 min) + Pact (3 min) (25% max heal + GCD)
Lichborne + Deathcoil (2 min, heal depending on vengeance stack)

So yeah, we do... but we have to pay for most of ours in GCDs and resources
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100 Human Paladin
6070
06/24/2011 01:21 PMPosted by Gnomercee
So yeah, we do... but we have to pay for most of ours in GCDs and resources


Outbreak and Blood Tap could arguably added (they both grant an extra Death Strike, which could be of varying influence depending on the fights, yet almost always of more personal benefit than Rune Tap), yet so could divine plea for paladins (spot Wog's with a cancelaura macro), Wings and Wog itself (which is only a 20 sec cd, yet it is micro'd similar to other cooldowns).

Then you could add HR.

Then Divine Guardian.

Basically paladins a lot of cds but most of them are situational, similar to intervene. We have less 'rotating' cooldowns than dks and slightly more the warriors/druids. The thing is most of our cooldowns are powerful and on long timers (wog and DP being the exceptions). HS fits a nice niche in our assortment of abilities.
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06/24/2011 06:04 AMPosted by Theck
Well, as Waniou said, you're not comparing apples to apples.

Did you mean to quote Prinz here?
He brought up Shield Block and I merely went about explaining how different they were.

Here, HS effectively functioned as a 14% mitigation cooldown.
So, by block capping, you increased the effectiveness of HS from 12% to 14%.

I don't feel that's so much of a difference as to call non-capped HS a minor cooldown and capped HS a major cooldown.
Now you're suddenly arguing that total damage taken matters?
I've already lost that battle, so come back over to the dark side.

Damage taken doesn't matter. Surviving a spike does.
If you're not block capped, then using it during spike damage is just a throw of the dice. Yes, it's probably easily 4 out of 5 sides in your favor, but it's still a dice throw. Because of that, if you're using it as a defensive cooldown then DP, AD, and GoaK will automatically take higher priority in any spike situation. Once you block cap, then it jumps up the list against physical.

But even then, we'll end up using HS together with DP/AD/GoaK during spike damage most of the time anyway.
Edited by Cphor on 6/27/2011 3:10 PM PDT
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That added a lot to the discussion, thanks.

Care to elaborate on why you think anything in that post is wrong?


On second thought; your off-handed "bump" comment obviously implies you don't want to talk about this topic anymore, so maybe you should just leave the discussion to people who actually still do want to talk about it.
Edited by Cphor on 6/27/2011 5:35 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6235
06/27/2011 05:29 PMPosted by Cphor
Care to elaborate on why you think anything in that post is wrong?

Primarily:
06/27/2011 01:56 PMPosted by Cphor
Because of that, if you're using it as a defensive cooldown then DP, AD, and GoaK will automatically take higher priority in any spike situation.

The idea is that the other 3 are already "spoken for", as in they're already allotted to be used in some other known incoming spike damage scenario, which means you have to use Holy Shield anyway.

Yes, if the boss doesn't have enough gimmicks that you can afford to use one of your more reliable cooldowns to shore up a spike, then good, use Divine Protection in conjunction with Holy Shield, what's the problem there?
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Because of that, if you're using it as a major cooldown then DP, AD, and GoaK will automatically take higher priority in any spike situation.

Fixed?

There's no problem in using them together.
And since they design encounters around mostly magic burst that all tanks can deal with with the generic 1 min / 3 min cooldowns, we will be using them together a lot.

I just wanted to clarify from earlier in the thread where some people were talking about using it just like any other major cooldown, when it's clearly not. (except on Chimaeron-like encounters anyway)
Edited by Cphor on 6/27/2011 6:11 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
8010
IBF (3 min/50%)
Boneshield (1 min/20%)
AMS (45 seconds/ 75% magic reduction)
VB (1 min/30% boost to healing received)
Rune Tap (30 sec/10% heal)
Army of the Dead (10 min/ dodge+parry % reduction)
Ghoul (2 min) + Pact (3 min) (25% max heal + GCD)
Lichborne + Deathcoil (2 min, heal depending on vengeance stack)

So yeah, we do... but we have to pay for most of ours in GCDs and resources
Forgot DRW and arguably ERW.
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100 Dwarf Warrior
17900
Are they going to redesign Guarded by the Light? With all the nerfs to WoG and now Holy Shield that will be a waste of talent points come 4.2.
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85 Human Paladin
6435
06/27/2011 06:13 PMPosted by Ailyth
Are they going to redesign Guarded by the Light? With all the nerfs to WoG and now Holy Shield that will be a waste of talent points come 4.2.


It is still very worth having. You don't waste to waste WoGs.
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06/27/2011 06:13 PMPosted by Ailyth
Are they going to redesign Guarded by the Light? With all the nerfs to WoG and now Holy Shield that will be a waste of talent points come 4.2.
There's probably no reason now to take 1/2 GbtL, but 2/2 will certainly still be attractive.
Using WoG right before a strong burst with the overheal shield is better than waiting to take the damage and then using WoG to heal it.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6235
06/27/2011 05:55 PMPosted by Cphor
Fixed?

I'm not sure why you're so hung up on the distinction between a major and a minor cooldown. I imagine most people don't really distinguish their various abilities in such terms.
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And I don't know why you're so hung up on calling everything wrong (and then posting something that actually supports what you're supposed to be disagreeing with).
Is it just an e-peen thing?

At some point, the discussion evolved into something very similar that went on on the warrior forums about Shield Block before the 20% flat magic reduction was added. Only then, I thought they came to the conclusion to use it often to make sure they weren't taxing healer mana during long fights.

Yourself, Xayton, and Mith all came to the opposite conclusion about HS, so I've just been trying to figure out why. If you don't want to contribute toward that point, then that's fine. But just complaining about the discussion doesn't do anyone any good.
Edited by Cphor on 6/27/2011 9:51 PM PDT
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