Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide

85 Troll Druid
AGB
9070
Hi everyone, I have been having a problem with my rotation lately. I have BPT, but it seems to say I'm in lunar eclipse when im not actually, or it takes longer than usual to register. So sometimes i start my IS-MF-SF rotation but then realize that NG never proc'd. So i have to re-dot at least once and i know this is hurting my dps. My question is what should i do? Just cast another wrath until i get the LE buff? Or wait for the buff to dot? But if I wait that's time when I'm not casting so it cant be good, but also casting an extra wrath seems a waste also. We are working on H Rag so I am far away from him, so I think its part of the problem. But I have noticed it other times also. It only happens going into LE, SE is not an issue. I know my dps is lower than it should be and I am pretty certain this is a big part of the problem. Other than that my only question would be this- If you are 1 or 2 casts away from and eclipse and your dots expire, would you instantly refresh them, or wait for the eclipse? I hate to wait 2 GCD's and delay getting into and eclipse just to refresh dots I'm going to clip anyway. But I also know dot uptime is a big deal. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
Quoting myself from a couple posts before yours:
Just be careful with dot refreshes and instant SS casts, though. An instant cast on the tail end of the spell that puts you in eclipse will NOT be eclipse buffed. So, if you're casting SF, you see "Solar Eclipse Soon!" on your screen, and you hit IS as soon as your SF cast is done, that IS will actually not be eclipse buffed, nor will it trigger NG. This is only true of instant cast spells, though. Any spell with a cast time will behave normally.

The same effect, but in reverse, applies when you're exiting eclipse, too. If you cast an instant cast on the tail end of the spell that causes you to exit eclipse, that spell will still be eclipse buffed.


Rag (and nef) have their own special problems, though. Because their hitboxes are so huge, your spell is actually traveling more than the normal 40yds to get to the target. Spells that have travel times, like wrath and SS, won't give the eclipse energy until they actually hit the target. On Rag you can usually cast 2-3 extra wraths before you actually get lunar eclipse. Likewise, you can get in an extra 2-3 solar eclipse buffed wrath casts at the end of solar eclipse. It's not a big deal to adjust - you just add some extra wraths into your rotation. The only thing you want to be really careful about is to not cast a SS during that time where you're waiting for lunar eclipse to proc, because when it lands, you'll likely already be in lunar, but when the spell was cast, you weren't. So it won't be eclipse buffed, but it will use eclipse energy.

09/22/2011 08:19 AMPosted by Tighand
Other than that my only question would be this- If you are 1 or 2 casts away from and eclipse and your dots expire, would you instantly refresh them, or wait for the eclipse? I hate to wait 2 GCD's and delay getting into and eclipse just to refresh dots I'm going to clip anyway. But I also know dot uptime is a big deal. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

This is one of those things where best practice is going to depend on your gear. If you absolutely want to know which one is best, use SimC to figure it out. My recommendation, though, if you're caught in that situation, is to just refresh even if you're close to eclipse, and then wait until you're about to exit eclipse to refresh again. Mainly this is to avoid massive clipping, but it also puts you back on track for proper refresh timing. If you refresh at the end of eclipse, you're usually due to refresh again towards the beginning of the next eclipse.

Depending on your haste, you might want to try a 2/1 refresh cycle, which means that you refresh your dots twice during solar (once at the beginning and once just before you leave) and only once during lunar (when the solar dots fall off). I've found this to be the best way (for me) to maintain eclipsed dot uptime while minimizing clipping.
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85 Troll Druid
AGB
9070
Thank you I will try that.
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90 Troll Druid
8870
Does anyone still use Rawr for gear optimization? I used to swear by it in WotLK, but since the switch to Silverlight and the addition of reforging into the mix, I generally find it a bit slow these days. I decided to give it another shot tonight with a very limited gear selection (just trying to see if Cowl of the Clicking Menace beats T12 helm w/ my current setup) and got some very surprising results - it's recommending that I zerg mastery.

Now I'm a fairly computer literate guy, and I've been using this program for years and know most of it's idiosyncracies, but I checked all the usual culprits (missing raid buffs, checked enchants, gems, etc) and everything is set up correctly. I set the boss handler to Baleroc to ensure that it's calculating straight up single-target DPS, but it's still rating Mastery way higher than Haste - in fact, Haste is ranked the lowest of the secondary stats, and Crit is running just below Mastery. The Moonkin module is supposedly actively maintained, so I'm wondering what's going on here.
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
Does anyone still use Rawr for gear optimization? I used to swear by it in WotLK, but since the switch to Silverlight and the addition of reforging into the mix, I generally find it a bit slow these days. I decided to give it another shot tonight with a very limited gear selection (just trying to see if Cowl of the Clicking Menace beats T12 helm w/ my current setup) and got some very surprising results - it's recommending that I zerg mastery.

Now I'm a fairly computer literate guy, and I've been using this program for years and know most of it's idiosyncracies, but I checked all the usual culprits (missing raid buffs, checked enchants, gems, etc) and everything is set up correctly. I set the boss handler to Baleroc to ensure that it's calculating straight up single-target DPS, but it's still rating Mastery way higher than Haste - in fact, Haste is ranked the lowest of the secondary stats, and Crit is running just below Mastery. The Moonkin module is supposedly actively maintained, so I'm wondering what's going on here.


I've never used Rawr. I have always found it to be bad for moonkin.

I suggest using wrathcalcs. It even has an armory uploader now for ease of use. Or, if you feel really adventurous you can always give SimulCraft a shot.
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I just wanted to thank you for taking the time and energy in putting this guide together. You can clearly see a lot of work went into it. Not only has it been a wealth of information but has made my game play experience far more enjoyable.
Though my druid is the lowest exp/gear/rep out of all my other toons, he remained on the sidelines for the past year, as I leveled/geared other characters.

He is now my main because of this guide and my game play experience.

Thanks again.
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
I just wanted to thank you for taking the time and energy in putting this guide together. You can clearly see a lot of work went into it. Not only has it been a wealth of information but has made my game play experience far more enjoyable.
Though my druid is the lowest exp/gear/rep out of all my other toons, he remained on the sidelines for the past year, as I leveled/geared other characters.

He is now my main because of this guide and my game play experience.

Thanks again.

heh. I'm glad I could help and inspire you. Hope all goes well with your new chicken.
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
10/02/2011 09:52 PMPosted by Valeor
changes I should make to my spec for H shannox,

Nothing special for Shannox, no. In general, you shouldn't really need moonglow or furor anymore. You can pick up Gale Winds for more typhoon damage, Fungal Growth for more utility.

You need to fix your glyphs, though. You should be using IS and MF all the time. There are very few fights in FL that would benefit from using starsurge over wrath - heroic modes, the only ones I'd even consider are Domo and Alysrazor if you're not flying. Also, if you're using hurricane as a slow, stop it. Get rid of the glyph and put those extra points in Fungal Growth, instead. Shrooms are better AE DPS, and they won't run you oom.

10/02/2011 09:52 PMPosted by Valeor
should I go with my tier helm shoulders chest and gloves, or switch the shoulders with the legs?

Chest/helm/gloves are definitely tier. Whether you go for shoulders or legs for the 4th piece just depends on what drops for you - it's fine either way. Since you still have 359 shoulders, you want to replace them with whatever drops ASAP, whether it's the shannox shoulders (either the spirit/haste or the mastery/haste ones), or your tier.

Also, put lavawalker on your boots and get thread for your pants. And use the right meta.
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90 Troll Druid
18540
First of all, I would like to say thank you for putting together such a complete guide. I know how much time this most have taken and am very appreciatative of your hard work. I know that I personally would love to see a more intensive guide listing the different talents of the talent tree to see why they are or are not recommended as well as the glyph choices. I know this may be asking a lot, but I also feels like it would explain a lot as well. I have also been reading a bit from elitistjerks.com and it seems like you and Hamlet don't always agree on the spec. Is there a reason for this, or is it just that I am not far enough into that forum to see that you two are now in agreeance (for example, whether LS is recommended or not for the overall boomkin spec).

Just a bit of information that I have found that, by the looks of things, people keep asking about.

If you would like to find out what your dps should be, you can go out to http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/downloads/list and download Simulation Craft. This will tell you about how much dps you should be doing. Keep in mind, that you will always be doing less dps unless you are a robot with zero latency. (I personal try to aim for no more than 10% less than the dps this program says I should be at.)

There was a fairly handy dandy guide to all rdps casters that Berthold was kind enough to post on elitistjerks.com. Trinket Comparisons:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnfJbiAHLcYgdDQ3ZHRuZS0xS052T0ktZk1XaUh6M1E&hl=en#gid=0

Where as I don't recommend using this website as gospel, it is fairly handy to see the rankings of certain gear and where it drops.
http://www.askmrrobot.com/

For addons, one that I personally love to use to let me know which spell I should be casting (so I don't have to keep looking down at my bars) is boomkinator. You can download this off of curse.com. It displays all your main spells, gives timers for your dots, and highlights which spell you should be casting (wrath / starfire).

Also, my own personal listing of what I consider to be BiS T12 (non-Heroic) gear. Keep in mind that this does take MY character with my own personal choices for Professions into account.
http://chardev.org/?profile=244708

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100 Troll Druid
11590
I have also been reading a bit from elitistjerks.com and it seems like you and Hamlet don't always agree on the spec. Is there a reason for this, or is it just that I am not far enough into that forum to see that you two are now in agreeance (for example, whether LS is recommended or not for the overall boomkin spec).
I'm just going to say something here, Hamlet doesn't currently use LS, and here is a quote from him over at TMR relating to the matter
Even though I've somewhat come around to dropping LS, I still think people are attributed too much significance to the energy gain from trying to MF while moving. For me, it's more that:
--It's no longer a method for freezing the Eclipse bar to delay an Eclipse. But we have newly-buffed nukes to do that with.
--And without that element, you honestly just don't move enough in most raid encounters for LS to be a large DPS increase overall.
You could almost have made the same case for dropping LS even pre-4.2, but this has provided us an impetus to re-examine the talent closely.
From:http://themoonkinrepository.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5979

Also here is my take on it in the 2 situations that people advocate its use:

Situation 1: Movement dps
Inside eclipse, it takes 3 MF/SnF casts to get up to max damage, which is still less than an eclipse buffed nuke. It also costs 16 energy to do these three casts, and then 8 more for every additional one. Just dropping a shroom to blow up later in solar with a full stack is the better option(since blowing up a shroom does ~20k and costs 0 GCDs)
Outside eclipse if you spam MF/SnF you will be overwriting eclipse dots, which is very bad. Even though you get to move closer to eclipse this is a bad option when compared to dropping shrooms while running.

Situation 2: AoE dps
While LS saves you mana and will do a little more on targets, most of your damage comes from the DoT ticks and WM, not the DD(even with a full stack of LS). But considering that you will lose solar, which is bad for AoE, LS is very bad here, it is best to pick up dreamstate to compensate for the mana loss.
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90 Troll Druid
7070
Thank you for posting this. After reading this I realized I made some pretty big mistakes and will be sure to fix them. Thanks for the help!
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90 Troll Druid
18540
Just one of those questions that I have been trying to figure out on my own, but haven't really found a definitive answer on yet: if crit is one of our worst stats, why is it that the talent Nature's Majesty is always "mandatory" and why do we want it in our meta? I have ran simulations where I was not specced into this talent and can clearly see the dps drop, just not sure as to the why. Is it because this gives us so much crit that, when combined with the crit we gain from our intellect (and currently our recommended meta), we just don't need it on gear and thus it is considered our worst gear stat? And on to the meta gem. Basically the same question. I'm just not seeing why we'd want crit in our meta rather than the 2% extra mana if people are speccing into things such as Dreamstate. Wouldn't the extra mana be better for us?
Edited by Nobil on 10/5/2011 9:55 AM PDT
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I want to get into boomkin pve and get to raid ready and such. Now I have full pvp healing gear, my question is: is it viable to use this gear for a boomkin spec in heroics till I get correct pve gear? Or should I just start over in normals and slowly gather real boomkin gear?
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100 Troll Druid
11590
10/05/2011 08:14 AMPosted by Nobil
Just one of those questions that I have been trying to figure out on my own, but haven't really found a definitive answer on yet: if crit is one of our worst stats, why is it that the talent Nature's Majesty is always "mandatory" and why do we want it in our meta? I have ran simulations where I was not specced into this talent and can clearly see the dps drop, just not sure as to the why. Is it because this gives us so much crit that, when combined with the crit we gain from our intellect (and currently our recommended meta), we just don't need it on gear and thus it is considered our worst gear stat? And on to the meta gem. Basically the same question. I'm just not seeing why we'd want crit in our meta rather than the 2% extra mana if people are speccing into things such as Dreamstate. Wouldn't the extra mana be better for us?
I'm sure Eluial will be in here soon to answer your questions, but basically Nature's Majesty, although it is crit, it a big dps boost and there aren't any good alternatives. Crit is more dps than mana so if the choice is mana or crit then take the crit.

Also the only reason that people spec into dreamstate is that it is the best remaining talent to fill out the balance tree considering the alternatives.
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
10/05/2011 02:37 PMPosted by Tagartou
I'm sure Eluial will be in here soon to answer your questions

heh, I usually just take a quick glance at the last poster in this thread to let me know when I need to check it. Since it was still you, Tag, I assumed no one had posted anything new.

10/05/2011 08:14 AMPosted by Nobil
Just one of those questions that I have been trying to figure out on my own, but haven't really found a definitive answer on yet: if crit is one of our worst stats, why is it that the talent Nature's Majesty is always "mandatory" and why do we want it in our meta? I have ran simulations where I was not specced into this talent and can clearly see the dps drop, just not sure as to the why. Is it because this gives us so much crit that, when combined with the crit we gain from our intellect (and currently our recommended meta), we just don't need it on gear and thus it is considered our worst gear stat?

There are lots of explanations for why crit is "so bad" for us, but the way I like to explain it is not why crit is bad, but why other stats are so much better.

Int and hit, I won't even bother mentioning, except to say it should be abundantly clear why they are excellent stats.

Haste right now is very strong because of what they did to dots in general, and specifically, to our dots. Allowing caster dots to scale with haste the way they do now allows us to use haste not only to increase DPS (because more ticks in the same amount of time) but DPM as well (the spell costs the same amount of mana, but for more damage). And they made moonkin dots so strong that it's pretty much a no brainer that if something increases our dot damage, we take it.

The other reason haste is strong is because of what eclipse upime does to our DPS. Again, this mostly has to do with dots, though. Because nature's grace resets every eclipse, and it's best to always have eclipse buffed, NG buffed dots up, getting to the next eclipse faster also means more DPS. The higher the percentage of dot ticks you have that are eclipse/NG buffed, the better your DPS is going to be. Haste allows you to get to the point where you never need put up uneclipsed dots.

Mastery, well, it's a lot more straightforward. Our main damage comes from eclipse. Mastery increases eclipse damage. Therefore, mastery is good.

But, you might say, well, crit potentially increases the damage of ALL spells, eclipsed or not! This is definitely true, which is why crit is not *bad* - after all, it's still a stat that will increase our DPS. But there are a few things mastery has over crit.

First is the conversion rate - point for point, mastery simply gives you more damage than crit does. Second is mastery's synergy with haste. Remember the whole eclipse/NG buffed dots thing? Well, the more mastery you have, the harder those dots will tick. And if ALL your dots are eclipse buffed (well, with the exception of every other IS), then they hit that much harder ALL the time, instead of whatever your crit chance is.

Finally, with the change from SP to int being our main stat, we actually have a lot of passive crit just by stacking int. Crit no longer drives anything in our rotation. It's just a RNG-based damage multiplier. It's nice if you can get it, but not at the cost of anything else.

And on to the meta gem. Basically the same question. I'm just not seeing why we'd want crit in our meta rather than the 2% extra mana if people are speccing into things such as Dreamstate. Wouldn't the extra mana be better for us?

We spec into nature's majesty because it's a throughput talent that's early in the tree and there's nothing better to take. It's basically free DPS.

We spec into dreamstate because without the mana savings from old LS, it's still a very real worry to go oom on certain fights where you have to stay in solar for an extended period. It's also nice to have a very powerful innervate if you die and are brez'd. Not to mention that it's all but pointless to give away your innervate anymore, so you're using it on yourself most of the time.

However, apart from the fights where we need to stay in solar for a long time, mana is not an issue for us at all, so the other mana talents, or a mana meta, are pointless. Dreamstate is more than enough to cover any mana concerns we might have.

We use the meta because it's, again, free damage. We don't need the mana from the other meta. So we might as well use the crit damage one. And, because we're hybrids, we actually get 209% extra damage with our crits.

Mana regen only converts to more DPS if you actually need it. Once you have more mana than you're using, then it's wasted. Extra DPS is always extra DPS.
Edited by Eluial on 10/5/2011 5:17 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
10/05/2011 01:44 PMPosted by Zemil
I want to get into boomkin pve and get to raid ready and such. Now I have full pvp healing gear, my question is: is it viable to use this gear for a boomkin spec in heroics till I get correct pve gear? Or should I just start over in normals and slowly gather real boomkin gear?


It should be ok for reg heroics at the very least, probably OK for zul heroics. Though for the sake of your party members, I'd recommend doing the old heroics while you learn the ropes a little bit.

Read the heroics page of the guide here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2721372177#13 for advice on how to adjust your gear and spec and stuff for that.
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85 Orc Warrior
2020
http://www.youtube.com/user/josapher1?feature=mhee
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