Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide

90 Troll Druid
11445
08/29/2012 01:23 PMPosted by Bubbageo
I'm not forgetting that. It doesn't end up being significant in my tests.
It should be. You can think off applying an off-eclipse DoT as either an uneclipsed wrath or a little bit more than half an uneclipsed starfire compared to an NG buffed one of those since thats what casting the DoT costs you. An NG buffed DoT, even not buffed by eclipse, should easily outweigh that.

Add into that the increased chance to proc SS and its easily better to put up both DoTs.
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90 Tauren Druid
1860
That's a simplistic view. When you hit the eclipse and gain NG, your nukes are 15% hasted as well, except they push you closer to your next NG. The design 9especially with SotF) wants to push you from eclipse to eclipse as quickly as possible. A gcd that isn't used to push the bar is a gcd that is reducing that haste buff's uptime. All I'm trying to say is that clipping dots and chasing their timers does not seem to be the intent of the rotation. The numbers on simulations were extremely low, while GC continued to tell us that their "numbers showed differently". Stands to reason the simulations were using the wrong rotation philosophy, does it not?
Edited by Bubbageo on 8/29/2012 3:59 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
19295
I want to thank you and Cyous for providing some insight into our MoP transition. After reviewing some posts here and moonkinrepository, I have a few questions:

Once you have entered Lunar Eclipse and Celestial Alignment is available:

Use Macro1:
Cast Sunfire
Cast Moonfire

Once you have entered Solar Eclipse - when Celestial Alignment has recently ended:

Cast Sunfire (don't refresh asap after CA; only cast it when Sunfire duration <= 1sec)
Cast Moonfire (don't refresh asap after CA; only cast it when Moonfire duration <= 1sec)


Regarding Nature's Grace, does it effect the first, second or both dots applied upon entering an eclipse? From your post you put sunfire first regardless of eclipse which makes me think NG now effects any dot applied during an eclipse. Is this true?

Use Macro2 after leaving Lunar Eclipse if possible: Celestial Alignment will empty out your energy bar (but hopefully you didn’t go very far past zero) and buff both Arcane and Nature dmg by 15%, and casting Moonfire will apply Sunfire as well.

Cast Starfall when the previous Starfall fades
Cast Moonfire (cast it again later when there is <= 1sec remaining on CA buff)
Cast Starsurge when it’s off cd, otherwise
Cast Starfire (multiple - until Solar Eclipse; it should only take 3 casts after CA wears off)


Seems you are using Celestial Alignment in lunar only? Is this correct?
Also, all spells become active during CA, so why are we only using only Starfire vs. Wrath?

Prior to exiting Solar Eclipse, clip your DoTs


If we are working across our bar lunar to solar and vice versa with our eclipsed dots, do we still continue the new practice of re-extending our eclipsed dots before leaving eclipse?

Thanks for your input and clarification.
Gerik
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
Regarding Nature's Grace, does it effect the first, second or both dots applied upon entering an eclipse? From your post you put sunfire first regardless of eclipse which makes me think NG now effects any dot applied during an eclipse. Is this true?

NG is now triggered upon reaching eclipse, not by a a DoT, meaning both dots will be affected by it as long as they're cast while its up.

The rotation I have outlined there is a little weird in that it's sort of guessing at the state of your dots. Due to the new extension mechanic, it's hard to say exactly when you'll be refreshing your dots. The reason I have SnF first at the beginning of the rotation is rather minor, but basically, if you can cast the eclipsed dot second, you get a very slight benefit from lunar shower to the eclipsed dot. That's really only going to be certain at the beginning of your rotation. In the second part of the rotation, where you hit solar, I say to cast SnF first because the assumption is that the MF from celestial alignment will be extended from the uneclipsed starfires, while the sunfire will not be. Of course, MF could be not extended, or they both could be extended the same amount, in which case you'd want to cast MF first. But most likely, MF will be extended.

Seems you are using Celestial Alignment in lunar only? Is this correct?
Also, all spells become active during CA, so why are we only using only Starfire vs. Wrath?

The best time to use CA is *after* lunar. You don't want to use it during an eclipse, ever. SF is better DPS (if marginally) than wrath, which is why we use it. SS should be used on CD as much as possible, during CA (and almost any other time), though. Because of that, the lunar -> solar transition is the most efficient time to use CA, since you'll be spamming SF anyway.

Prior to exiting Solar Eclipse, clip your DoTs

If we are working across our bar lunar to solar and vice versa with our eclipsed dots, do we still continue the new practice of re-extending our eclipsed dots before leaving eclipse?

Thanks for your input and clarification.
Gerik

I don't know where that quote came from (I don't think it was something I wrote... was it?) so I'm unsure of the context. It's pretty unclear exactly when we should be clipping our eclipsed dots, especially with the extension mechanic. I don't have a good answer for this one.
Edited by Eluial on 8/29/2012 4:39 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
08/29/2012 03:43 PMPosted by Bubbageo
That's a simplistic view. When you hit the eclipse and gain NG, your nukes are 15% hasted as well, except they push you closer to your next NG. The design 9especially with SotF) wants to push you from eclipse to eclipse as quickly as possible. A gcd that isn't used to push the bar is a gcd that is reducing that haste buff's uptime. All I'm trying to say is that clipping dots and chasing their timers does not seem to be the intent of the rotation. The numbers on simulations were extremely low, while GC continued to tell us that their "numbers showed differently". Stands to reason the simulations were using the wrong rotation philosophy, does it not?

The people running the sims tried many different rotations, though I don't know if this is one they tried or not. My suggestion to you, if you're serious about trying to push this, is to run a sim yourself using this particular rotation. I'm hesitant to put even the small amount of trust I usually have into dummy numbers right now, simply because everything is so new to everyone, I very much doubt you (or anyone else) really has mastered the rotation and its nuances enough to provide even somewhat accurate dummy results.

What Tagartou says makes sense to me in the context of the spec's general purpose and feel, and they way we've played in the past. It seems more in line with the philosophy of playstyle for moonkin than what you're suggesting does. Now, that's not to say I'm dismissing what you're saying out of hand, but I'd like to see numbers, logs at the very least, backing up what you're saying.
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90 Tauren Druid
1860
It's not that serious to me. I've started using it in heroics and it's working far better for bosses and trash, so that's good enough for me. Try it if you'd like, or not. But I would put a small wager down that this is the intent of the spec, even if the numbers on wrath/sf do need tweaking still.
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90 Troll Druid
11620
08/29/2012 03:43 PMPosted by Bubbageo
That's a simplistic view. When you hit the eclipse and gain NG, your nukes are 15% hasted as well, except they push you closer to your next NG. The design 9especially with SotF) wants to push you from eclipse to eclipse as quickly as possible. A gcd that isn't used to push the bar is a gcd that is reducing that haste buff's uptime. All I'm trying to say is that clipping dots and chasing their timers does not seem to be the intent of the rotation. The numbers on simulations were extremely low, while GC continued to tell us that their "numbers showed differently". Stands to reason the simulations were using the wrong rotation philosophy, does it not?

Here's a hint:
Damage per Execution Time

The simulations were/are wrong due to minor glitches with the simulation event manager. Also, we weren't 20k behind mages, we were 30k behind them. HarrHarr Blizzard.

Anyways, if you don't consider the DpET of each spell, you'll never have accurate results. As it stands, clipping your DOTs is a fairly big increase in damage when compared to the damage lost to fewer hardcasts. This is mostly due to Solar Eclipse (Wrath) sucking a hairy set of unidentifiable rodent genitalia.

While you aren't forced into a perfect playstyle, some of us want to know how to play at our best. Most of the time, simulations are there to tell us "no, that's not better than this." Fact remains, simulations, while they aren't perfect, they are fairly accurate.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Night Elf Druid
11830
With how bad wrath is right now, are we sure that it's better than just using astral communion to get through those phases faster?
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Seems you are using Celestial Alignment in lunar only? Is this correct?
Also, all spells become active during CA, so why are we only using only Starfire vs. Wrath?


Starfire does alot more damage than Wrath
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Lissanna
MVP
85 Night Elf Druid
Undying Resolution
9175

With how bad wrath is right now, are we sure that it's better than just using astral communion to get through those phases faster?


I was thinking the same just get out of of solar asap and get back to lunar not sure though.
Edited by Bugly on 8/29/2012 7:31 PM PDT
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Does anyone actually use astral communion? and if you do when do you use it?
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90 Troll Druid
11620
08/29/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Lissanna
With how bad wrath is right now, are we sure that it's better than just using astral communion to get through those phases faster?

No, don't.
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
08/29/2012 07:31 PMPosted by Bugly
Does anyone actually use astral communion? and if you do when do you use it?

Just finished running DS. I think I only used AC in combat for spine, only. Otherwise, I just used it out of combat to set my eclipse bar.

edit: So apparently I peaked at 172k DPS on ultraxion. lulz. Too bad I died at the end.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/tnw2yfuncy7y909n/sum/damageDone/?s=3131&e=3298

Not sure why it says all the fights were normal. Everything but madness was heroic.
Edited by Eluial on 8/29/2012 8:44 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
11620
08/29/2012 08:35 PMPosted by Eluial
Not sure why it says all the fights were normal. Everything but madness was heroic.

WOL isnt registering the instance_type properly.
Edited by Cyous on 8/29/2012 9:14 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Druid
4805
Hey guys, um just a small question, I remember pre-patch we used insect swarm to activate NG at the start of an eclipse cycle, so I was wondering now that NG procs with the start of an eclipse, if there is still that GCD it takes before our dots are buffed with NG.

i.e. at 80 energy going into lunar eclipse, if we cast wrath followed by an immediate moonfire, will that moonfire be buffed by NG? I have a feeling it might not be but im not 100% sure
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90 Troll Druid
11620
Hey guys, um just a small question, I remember pre-patch we used insect swarm to activate NG at the start of an eclipse cycle, so I was wondering now that NG procs with the start of an eclipse, if there is still that GCD it takes before our dots are buffed with NG.

i.e. at 80 energy going into lunar eclipse, if we cast wrath followed by an immediate moonfire, will that moonfire be buffed by NG? I have a feeling it might not be but im not 100% sure

I'm not sure, I'd need to review some logs (I've had issues with Nature's Grace and Eclipse not displaying though I'm adding them to the conditionals in the Log Browser.)

I would say... No.
However, you can always spam Starfall first and avoid this whole situation :)

Adding:
Also...look at this updated PowerAurasClassic...I like what I see (over my character plate)
http://oi48.tinypic.com/531nol.jpg
Edited by Cyous on 8/30/2012 1:27 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
7605
08/29/2012 12:23 PMPosted by Tagartou
Hurricane ticks for noticeably higher than Astral Storm. Shrooms and typhoon don't play into AoE at all. Lunar is better for short term AoE, but Solar is better for anything longer than 10s or so.


Ah right you are, didn't notice the damage difference between them. And it seems typhoon doesn't do any damage at all anymore, although i could've sworn it did yesterday. They might've stealth fixed it, the same way they did with 255% speed kitty dash.
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90 Troll Druid
7605
Astral communion is used mostly before fights to position your Eclipse bar where you want it to be. For pve, this is typically 25 energy from lunar eclipse, to line up 3x starfalls for some crazy burst.

I find it handy also for resetting starfall, as well as mana regen, since we don't have 50% innervates anymore. The mana regen bit of it will probably come in handy on something like yorsajh i imagine, since Astral communion doesn't have a mana cost.
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Is Wowreforge calculator down for anyone else?

Also once i put hit to 1537 and haste to 1589 do i put everything else into crit??
Edited by Bugly on 8/30/2012 8:56 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
Adding:
Also...look at this updated PowerAurasClassic...I like what I see (over my character plate)
http://oi48.tinypic.com/531nol.jpg

That looks good! It wasn't ready in time for raid last night, and I forgot to check for it afterward. Or is that still a beta version you're using?

08/30/2012 02:37 AMPosted by Velaniz
The mana regen bit of it will probably come in handy on something like yorsajh i imagine, since Astral communion doesn't have a mana cost.

Yes! I think I did that once or twice - set myself one cast from eclipse, then used AC to jump to eclipse after my mana was drained.

Is Wowreforge calculator down for anyone else?

Also once i put hit to 1537 and haste to 1589 do i put everything else into crit??

Last night I noticed it wasn't able to pull characters from armory anymore. But if you had your character previously loaded it might still be there. If not, it's a bit of a headache, but you can build a character manually, too.

For the stats, just set up the bottom the way I show in my screen shot in the guide.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2721372177?page=46#903
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