Remarkably Unkind Design Decision [Long]

100 Night Elf Priest
10415
you realize this is the same people who gave us a holiday event with a boss that drops 353 cloaks as a reward, then 2 weeks later gives us a questline that drops a 365 cloak (thrall) then at the same time the very first reward you get for your rep in firelands is.. you guessed it a 378 cloak..

sometimes you gotta wonder if these people even talk to each other when they design this stuff..
23 Dwarf Hunter
240
And raiders complain that casual players want everything handed to them.

well, well, well, looky here.

so i can see blizzards side of this. 10 mans are geared more toward casual players that don't have the time to get together a 25 man raid. where as 25 mans are not they're more time consuming to put together and coordinate a team.

so 10 mans have a smaller chance to get a drop than a 25 man will.
100 Night Elf Druid
15885
And raiders complain that casual players want everything handed to them.

well, well, well, looky here.

so i can see blizzards side of this. 10 mans are geared more toward casual players that don't have the time to get together a 25 man raid. where as 25 mans are not they're more time consuming to put together and coordinate a team.

so 10 mans have a smaller chance to get a drop than a 25 man will.


No.

lol.. 10m are not more casual just because they have fewer players. The hardest part with 25m is getting 25 people. The raids generally are much easier because you have much more wiggle room than you do in 10m.
100 Night Elf Druid
15885
06/30/2011 03:44 PMPosted by Boneclawz
I can't even fathom how much whining and moaning would be going on if this was vanilla and all legendarys were based off a miniscule drop rate in a 40 man raid. Such a feeling of entitlement.


Except back then it was everyone had the exact same chance. If you could raid, you had the same chance as everyone else.

But not now! Even though they have claimed that they made the changes so that the 25m and 10m were equal, and people did not feel forced to run 25m for an item, they made this item require 25m content if you want to have any real chance of obtaining it. All you need to do is kill 25 (or less) bosses and BOOM you got the stuff you need.

In 10m, you can kill 25 bosses, and still have 0 items to show for it.

THAT is what the issue is.
Edited by Tharis on 6/30/2011 4:30 PM PDT
90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
06/29/2011 11:08 PMPosted by Dailiahn
but assuming an even drop


Well there's your problem.
90 Blood Elf Hunter
8605
Do 25s then.

Never before have legendaries been available at 10 man level before, so just the POSSIBILITY of getting one should be more than enough of a reward.

10 man guilds bring what, 2 tanks, 2-3 healers, the rest is DPS. How much of that is caster? Maybe 2, 3 tops? You don't need as many staves as 25s. Just be thankful that you can get one at all. Not to mention the imbalance that would exist if you were getting multiple legendary staves, how that could affect the ease of raiding...
100 Night Elf Druid
15885
06/30/2011 04:28 PMPosted by Synchild
Never before have legendaries been available at 10 man level before, so just the POSSIBILITY of getting one should be more than enough of a reward.


never before has 25m been given a 100%+ drop rate on items needed for the legendary either.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
10815
And raiders complain that casual players want everything handed to them.

well, well, well, looky here.

so i can see blizzards side of this. 10 mans are geared more toward casual players that don't have the time to get together a 25 man raid. where as 25 mans are not they're more time consuming to put together and coordinate a team.

so 10 mans have a smaller chance to get a drop than a 25 man will.


No.

lol.. 10m are not more casual just because they have fewer players. The hardest part with 25m is getting 25 people. The raids generally are much easier because you have much more wiggle room than you do in 10m.


40's were a sheer mess alot of the time. You could always count on atleast one or two members being intoxicated in some fashion and atleast a few squabbles about assignments and overall most if not all guilds that are progression based go rotten to the core with cliche groups where if you aren't someone you aren't running anything. 40's were epic in the sheer size but mostly just like a classroom full of kids that just want to go go go. Loot!

40's got to be too much trouble to make though because most of the population never really saw any of it. Somewhere it was said that only 11% of the playerbase had actually accomplished the highest content. 11% at that time was still in vanilla with a couple million players, so that's generally a small portion. So in BC they opened it up a bit, although not too many guilds were able to field the 25 man Black Temple consistently because people got what they wanted and left. Stopped showing up, whatever. It's the cycle of the game for people to come and go. Problem is, they were putting alot of work into instances that the majority didn't get to even see outside of you-tube and running with over leveled characters now.

Aight so they went with 10 man's in Wrath, the "Wrath Mentality" was born ( although i blame the introduction of the badge system combined with LFD for the fatal strike to the heart of the community ) and suddenly the world opened up with more people seeing the content. Epics were common place and everyone claims to have killed LK ( although i don't see many Kingslayers ) even now.

With WoW coming along in the years i am finding the "specialness" running thin and backing this feeling is a community that seemingly would consume its young at birth if it so much as twitched wrong ( just look at the forums and PUG groups ) and its no surprise that getting 25's together would become more of a hassle and that 10 mans might seem more attractive now. And they would be if blizzard started playing ball, and just let this game actually open up and be fun. Stop punishing the angry bitter players you helped create and acknowledge the fact that the playerbase is venomous in nature and work around making things that are less frustrating and more fun for ALL of us to do together and maybe we'll get somewhere. Right now with this whole way Blizzard is handling this smacks of stubborn thinking that somehow 10 mans should be at a major disadvantage. Not just less loot but possibly none at all when it comes to the legendary that takes a ridiculous amount of these thing's to make for just ONE person much less a whole guild and the tedium in farming the instances that much on a 10 man with chances to never see it although it's the same content just smaller and we have a game that saps the fun out of it and is clearly milking players for subscriptions.

Games need to be about fun. MMO's should be more social and fun rather than complete souless grinding. If we think "Well that's what an MMO is durrrrr" then clearly you don't want things to change for the better. Change is only brought on when its wanted. It would be more fun to be a hero and do epic things than a bland avatar in epic gear standing around.
Community Manager
You’re assuming the drop chances for embers averages out to .5 per boss in 10’s and 2 per boss in 25’s, which it doesn’t. Whether you’re in 10’s or 25’s you’re going to see an equal drop average for Eternal Embers per player, and the same can be said for Seething Cinders.

From Ask the Devs #4:

A: Our main goal is to offer the Legendary in both 10 and 25 without requiring say a 25-player raid to feel like they have to switch to running 10s for the sole purpose of Legendary fragment acquisition (and the same is true for 10s). Our plan is to make Legendary completion take longer to acquire in 10-player raids. The exact ratio will be somewhat obfuscated because of the variation in the amount of fragments dropped per boss based on both raid size and raid difficulty. However, you can plan on it being maybe 2 to 2.5 times faster for the 25-player raid. It should feel analogous to number of Valor points or gold dropped in 25s, and is being treated the same.
85 Tauren Warrior
11105
06/30/2011 06:04 PMPosted by Bashiok
You’re assuming the drop chances for embers averages out to .5 per boss in 10’s and 2 per boss in 25’s, which it doesn’t. Whether you’re in 10’s or 25’s you’re going to see an equal drop average for Eternal Embers per player, and the same can be said for Seething Cinders.


So the 10 man guilds that have gotten zero this week is intentional? Because whenever there is a chance of 0, there is going to be an chance of people getting 0 forever. You could put the drop at 99.9999~ and it's still not as good as 1, as some people are just flat out unlucky.

Not trying to be rude, just trying to figure out the thought process.
Edited by Gavan on 6/30/2011 6:10 PM PDT
20 Human Mage
160
What is wrong with raiding Firelands after the next raid is released? Are you saying the legendary staff is going to be obsolete on next tier? Last I check, as long as we are in cataclysm, all raids are relevant.

Are legendary items becoming the next epic? You can't be cool without it? This is already a huge improvement over Thunderfury and the likes, which collectors have farmed for YEARS and not seen the bindings drop.

Legendary items aren't meant to replace epics. You can still down bosses without them


Don't ask selfish gamers to apply an objective context to this game. They want it all and they want it now.
85 Troll Druid
6670
06/30/2011 06:07 PMPosted by Gavan
You’re assuming the drop chances for embers averages out to .5 per boss in 10’s and 2 per boss in 25’s, which it doesn’t. Whether you’re in 10’s or 25’s you’re going to see an equal drop average for Eternal Embers per player, and the same can be said for Seething Cinders.


So the 10 man guilds that have gotten zero this week is intentional? Because whenever there is a chance of 0, there is going to be an chance of people getting 0 forever. You could put the drop at 99.9999~ and it's still not as good as 1, as some people are just flat out unlucky.

Not trying to be rude, just trying to figure out the thought process.

We call this RNG. RNG is not alwaysa kind. 25man is harder, in all respects, for this raiding tier. There is much more coordination required as well as responsibility for more players (more players = more chances to make a mistake; you cannot refute this). Rewarding 25man raiding guilds is definitely a fair decision; though 10man may become unlucky, it's mathematically fair.

Also, Blizzard clearly stated 25's would get the staff faster than 10's.
85 Troll Priest
4160

You’re assuming the drop chances for embers averages out to .5 per boss in 10’s and 2 per boss in 25’s, which it doesn’t. Whether you’re in 10’s or 25’s you’re going to see an equal drop average for Eternal Embers per player, and the same can be said for Seething Cinders.



Why have 2 sets of Cinder drops? I don't understand that. This almost feels like Nesingwary. "Oh, you killed 30 Elekks? GO KILL THIRTY MORE". I know it's not exactly like that as there are steps in between, and the whole chain looks well thought out EXCEPT for the two Cinder parts.

I get you didn't want everyone to easily get Living Embers, so you had to change the first quest to not be Living Embers. That part makes sense. But why take the easy way out and just make it another "Gather 25 shards from a raid boss" quest? Or if you were going to do that then, why not change the Seething Cinders part to something else? Could have made it like the infusion quests from Shadowmourne too, where you have to do something wacky for each boss fight. There's a lot of options there.
80 Orc Warrior
0
So a 25 man group getting 10+ and a 10 man group getting 0 is fair?

Cinders is more fun cause we need 1000 of them.
Edited by Toll on 6/30/2011 6:59 PM PDT
100 Blood Elf Paladin
10815
06/30/2011 06:48 PMPosted by Elidra
You’re assuming the drop chances for embers averages out to .5 per boss in 10’s and 2 per boss in 25’s, which it doesn’t. Whether you’re in 10’s or 25’s you’re going to see an equal drop average for Eternal Embers per player, and the same can be said for Seething Cinders.

As long as 0 is possible, it's unacceptable. Having the possibility of not working towards the legendary is terrible design.


Working towards a goal and seeing the progress is HUGE with people. How can you guys not get this after 6 years? Seeing progress made is what led to things like badges being as popular as they are. Now granted i'm not saying legendary items should be near as common, but pointing out that when you take any feeling of progression away ( and nothing does that quite like well, getting nothing ) then the incentive to even try will be lost for some people. Progressing one's character is the sole reason we even play WoW in the first place. Seeing things like that just reinforces the ideal that blizzard is backing off on the promises of making special things accessible. Kinda like how accessible the hilt drop was back in Wrath. Very accessible to the casual player just 10k gold.
85 Orc Shaman
12530
You guys must not think of the 25 man guilds. There was debate if it would be best to split into 3 10 mans so we could get legendaries faster. Having 10s progress it at the exact same rate as a 25 man isn't fair to 25 mans and encourages things like splitting groups into 10 mans.

I don't know what the drop rates are atm, but they shouldn't be equal.
Edited by Trogdoroth on 6/30/2011 7:00 PM PDT
2 Undead Mage
0
You guys must not think of the 25 man guilds. There was debate if it would be best to split into 3 10 mans so we could get legendaries faster. Having 10s progress it at the exact same rate as a 25 man isn't fair to 25 mans and encourages things like splitting groups into 10 mans.

I don't know what the drop rates are atm, but they shouldn't be equal.

Did you not read the post?

It said an equal drop rate PER PLAYER, which means they're dropping 2.5X as much in 25-man.
100 Blood Elf Priest
11205
So a 25 man group getting 10+ and a 10 man group getting 0 is fair?


RNG isn't about fair. Random means random. Some 10 mans will get zero, others will get more.
90 Orc Warrior
8035
Well, if 25's have a 100% chance to get at least 1 ember per kill and 10's don't, it's not fair to 10's. It should be either 10's have a 100% chance for 1 per kill and 25's have a 100% chance per kill for 1-3, OR there's a chance for BOTH 10's and 25's to not get an ember per boss kill, although 25's can still see multiples. Due to potential bad RNG streaks it should be one or the other.

I don't think a lot of people who have issues with this topic would have any issues if a 25 man boss kill had a chance to not drop any embers at all. A 25 man boss may already have a chance to drop 0 embers, but I haven't read any cases of such.
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