Holy Paladin: Mastery

100 Draenei Paladin
20585

If I recall, 25 mans had an easier time casting HLs last tier as well (at a 2:1 ratio to DL) where it seemed like the opposite for 10 man (1:2 ratio to DL). I may just get bored one night and try it to see how it works, although it seems kind of risky in 10m progression.


Why not?

I solo heal the tank up top on H Beth'tilac 25 H with mostly Holy Lights (well, did before we realized swapping a paladin and shaman would be much more efficient).

Paladins often undervalue the power of Holy Light along with their other tools (namely, WoG and single target hps cooldowns). This was even true somewhat pre-patch, where I hold a number of top-notch lolhps logs with half the number of Divine Lights of other paladins.

I haven't done heroic 10-mans but I did do a few 10-mans on PTR and my 4.2 heal style did not change much. I feel like the balance and healing disparities are a bit less pronounced this time 'round, so I get the feeling that a lot of the 10-man sentiment here stems from 4.0/4.1 problems. Could be completely wrong about 10-man heroics of course, but my comments about Holy Light apply heavily to 25-man paladins as well at the very least.
Edited by Eloderung on 7/8/2011 3:41 PM PDT
85 Dwarf Paladin
5175

If I recall, 25 mans had an easier time casting HLs last tier as well (at a 2:1 ratio to DL) where it seemed like the opposite for 10 man (1:2 ratio to DL). I may just get bored one night and try it to see how it works, although it seems kind of risky in 10m progression.


Why not?

I solo heal the tank up top on H Beth'tilac 25 H with mostly Holy Lights (well, did before we realized swapping a paladin and shaman would be much more efficient).

Paladins often undervalue the power of Holy Light along with their other tools (namely, WoG and single target hps cooldowns). This was even true somewhat pre-patch, where I hold a number of top-notch lolhps logs with half the number of Divine Lights of other paladins.

I haven't done heroic 10-mans but I did do a few 10-mans on PTR and my 4.2 heal style did not change much. I feel like the balance and healing disparities are a bit less pronounced this time 'round, so I get the feeling that a lot of the 10-man sentiment here stems from 4.0/4.1 problems.


I'm about a 50:50 split right now in normals from HL to DL. I will say that they have evened out the damage from tanks and the raid more where the 100% beacon transfer works a little better, but in 10s (especially heroics) you're much more apt to switch your target off a spam tank to someone else, thus making things a little harder to catch up and needing a DL.

I want to experiment with this to see if there is any feasibility with the mastery/crit build, but I'm afraid to start right as we get to heroics.
85 Dwarf Paladin
11575
Lastly, EH is no longer the end all be all of stats for tanks. Increasing the EH of a tank doesn't have the same effect that it did back in wrath.


This is so wrong that I'm holding up my guild from pulling during progression to say just how wrong this comment is. Tanks in Firelands die just as fast and just as easily as they did in Wrath. Healers have to spam tanks non-stop like they did in Wrath. EH is king.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5020
Agreed. I've only done a couple heroic encounters, and so far I've seen tanks get wrecked---from normal hits. Both tanks on heroic Shannox can take 80%+ of their health in one hit. On heroic Rhyolith the Spark tank can as well if at high stacks. I'm sure we'll see massive tank damage on heroic Rag as well.

I'd guess that your tanks are undergeared.

Normal modes were clearly designed to be done in 359 with perhaps 1-2 353s. Since there's no way you're running around in full 378s right now both your tanks and your healers are undergeared.

Of course if you're running in 372s you're not terribly undergeared and it'll still be possible. I imagine even in 359s many of the heroic fights are possible.

I'd guess that in full 378s with a smattering of Rag loot and 1-2 heroic pieces EHP will again be irrelevant. But it's just a guess.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5020
My tanks are in 375 and 376 ilvl. There's much spikier damage to the tanks in heroic t12 than there was in heroic t11. Obviously with more gear encounters will become easier, but there's clearly a different damage model in t12 heroics.

Well I had heard that there was supposed to be a bigger difference between normals and heroics this tier.

Anything less than 378 ilvl is undergeared in HM encounters. Which doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. Just the opposite, it require more skill and coordination than going in with your whole raid in all 378s.

My point was that it changes the healing style to be undergeared for encounters. Doing my first heroic dungeon I used a much different style than I use to heal heroic dungeons now. I'm just guessing but I think once your tanks have a decent amount of HP and avoidance compared to boss attacks, EHP will lose it's value.
100 Draenei Paladin
20585

My tanks are in 375 and 376 ilvl. There's much spikier damage to the tanks in heroic t12 than there was in heroic t11. Obviously with more gear encounters will become easier, but there's clearly a different damage model in t12 heroics.


There only is if your tanks do not know how to properly cooldown.

I think the only exception is probably Baleroc. Domo and Rag are possibilities but I have no first-hand experience or knowledge on the heroic versions of those fights.

T11 heroics were not that heavily dependant on having skilled tanks/healers using cooldowns intelligently. In Firelands however there's a huge difference between a skilled tank and an average tank.

This is of course relative to the tools available now. In T11 heroics we did not have double healing crits or the incredible single target healing prowess of shaman and WoG/IH now. The tank damage definitely did not scale up with the healing changes at least for the first four heroic bosses I have killed or have experience with.

The only big departure I see is that raid damage is a lot more constant and a good bit more bursty/intense phases than in T12, but that makes sense given the crit change. (Crit with AoE heals is far less RNG than crit on single target heals)

Heroic encounters aren't tuned for the raid to be full 378 so that's an innacurate statement.


I heavily disagree with that. Normal Ascendant Council was harder for my guild to kill than heroic Ascendant Council because normal council was done in a mish-mash of quest greens and blues, while heroic council was done in proper gear.

Tuned for a higher ilvl != content is impossible in lower ilvls. Top guilds will always blaze through hard content even if the content is tuned for higher ilvls. Encounters like heroic Baleroc are probably flat-out impossible unless your raid consists of mostly top world dps/healers with current gear, but top100 US guilds will eventually kill him as gear auto-nerfs the encounter.
Edited by Eloderung on 7/9/2011 10:11 AM PDT
85 Human Paladin
8765
So what stat priorities are you guys going for?

Eloderung seems to be: Int > Mastery > Crit > Haste > Spirit

(Except I'm not sure what you're doing with gems. A stat plateau maybe?)

Zaroua seems to be: Mastery > Int > Spirit > Haste > Crit
100 Draenei Paladin
20585
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/b9ynq3ofp3ah4xq6/details/101/?s=13146&e=13414

Riplimb's average attack is 148k. I don't think that's a matter of tank skill.



http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/kaikulu/riplimbdamagetaken.jpg

from our heroic kill Tuesday.

Don't ignore fight mechanics. :]

So what stat priorities are you guys going for?

Eloderung seems to be: Int > Mastery > Crit > Haste > Spirit

(Except I'm not sure what you're doing with gems. A stat plateau maybe?)


I'm still somewhat in flux. I completed most of normal Firelands in my 4.1 setup. I swapped to a low spirit, high crit high haste support tank healing build for Ragnaros and Shannox/Beth'tilac. I was unhappy with how low my throughput was with that setup, considering the setup was purely support and suffered when handling burst tank damage. I switched to low spirit, high mastery and crit for heroic Rhyolith and the couple dozen Alys attempts we've put in so far.

I'll be updating my gems soon. I've just been lazy and I'm probably going to focus more on raw int over spirit (too many blue sockets with int bonuses, hate!). Int/haste gems are leftover from 4.1.

My current itemization is also pretty meh for my current stat focus. Too much haste, spirit/haste pieces from T11 still so I'm working on getting rid of that. I'm not sure if I'll go for 4-piece T12 or not yet, though the 2-piece is fairly substantial.

Otherwise, I've been pretty happy with how low spirit / high mastery/crit is working as a two-tank support healer build. It seems to put out boatloads of raw tank-buffering hps across two targets, but it still does a very acceptable job at keeping tanks up through both expected and unexpected burst damage. WoG + Last Word is absolutely incredible with high mastery when tank damage is light, such as in H Rhyolith and down below on Beth'tilac. Of course, it can't match what Zaroua should be able to put out on single tank targets or when handling burst, but I'm content to strongly buffer tank hp while our shaman fires off 100k GHWs.

The real test will of course come with Baleroc. We rarely spend more than 16 hours/week on progression though so we'll probably be banging our heads against him next week.
Edited by Eloderung on 7/9/2011 10:32 AM PDT
100 Draenei Paladin
20585
That screenshot from your shannox kill makes me want to punch my tank in his crotch...WTFFFF

Mind explaining why there's the difference?


The dogs on heroic have a stacking damage buff so it's a good idea to reset the debuff by leading the dogs into freezing traps. The important part is that raid members / tanks run away from a frozen dog so that the stacking buff fades before he swings and refreshes the buff - in other words, freezing alone will not clear the debuff off of the dogs. Rageface requires a single raid member to flee after the trap - he will pick a random target and chase them after exiting the trap. Riplimb requires your offtank to run away as Riplimb won't chase after random people.

We also have a single warrior tank on Shannox, and between intervene and Heroic Leap he is able to clear his DoT frequently enough that he can be kept alive mostly with HoTs, passives, and Holy Lights+Beacon.

You also do not need to kill either dog during the entire fight. Shannox will never enrage and the MT damage will remain low for the entire encounter.

And lastly, there should be little raid damage during this fight. Face Rage should do no more than one tick of damage, as well. (We just have a few dps dedicated to trapping and damaging Rageface, so that he becomes little more than a nuisance to our healers). If dps and tanks execute well on this fight it can be done with three or four healers without too much of an issue.
Edited by Eloderung on 7/9/2011 10:53 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6925
Though not exactly the time or place for this ... there probably isn't any better.

All you pallys tickling the idea of Mastery > Int > BLAH > BLAH

Don't forget the mastery shield enchant !!!! If you're eschewing your int gems for mastery, then a 50 mastery vs 40 int swap is right up your alley! Zaroua yes I am armory stalking you. :D
Edited by Ashleyriot on 7/9/2011 11:02 AM PDT
100 Draenei Paladin
20585
07/09/2011 10:54 AMPosted by Purfsky
Hmm I coulda sworn our tanks were resetting their stacks. Your riplimb tank only took 2 melee hits though...guess he was kiting as well?


41 hits over 5 minutes. Most were blocks which are not included under hits in WoL. Most of the damage is from Jagged Tear's DoT, though the average tick on that was only 22982.2. Also important that the DoT is reset as well on the tank when Riplimb is trapped.
85 Dwarf Paladin
11575
Though not exactly the time or place for this ... there probably isn't any better.

All you pallys tickling the idea of Mastery > Int > BLAH > BLAH

Don't forget the mastery shield enchant !!!! If you're eschewing your int gems for mastery, then a 50 mastery vs 40 int swap is right up your alley! Zaroua yes I am armory stalking you. :D


Oh wow, good catch. Thanks a bunch!
100 Draenei Paladin
20585
Though not exactly the time or place for this ... there probably isn't any better.

All you pallys tickling the idea of Mastery > Int > BLAH > BLAH

Don't forget the mastery shield enchant !!!! If you're eschewing your int gems for mastery, then a 50 mastery vs 40 int swap is right up your alley! Zaroua yes I am armory stalking you. :D


Oh wow, good catch. Thanks a bunch!


While on that subject...

Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond + 50 Mastery to boots (as the meta takes care of runspeed).

At least I'd go down that route if picking up heavy Mastery. An additional 69 Mastery in exchange for the survivability meta.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
10845
Would we maybe want to use Revitalizing Shadowspirit Diamond (54 Spirit/3% increased critical healing effect) over Ember Shadowspirit for mastery heavy builds since the increased crit healing will correspond directly into mastery shields?
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