Holy Paladin: Mastery

85 Dwarf Paladin
11575
The arguement was that healing your beacon target is a thoroughput loss, it is.


"This virtually eliminates BoL" That was the point I was arguing.

Perhaps it's much different in 10-man (a lot is) but I've found Disc priests to be vastly superior tank healers in 4.2, especially on fights where beacon can't be used to cross heal the tanks (Beth, any one tank fight).

I'd say a Paladin trying to be a tank healer in 4.2 is a Paladin trying to be a weak disc priest. Why is your unsupported opinion better than mine?


10 man is a completely different beast than 25 man. I'll go edit the OP to reflect the fact that this only really applies to 25 man raiding.

This is mind boggling to me. Again, maybe this is a 25 vs 10 thing but an Intellect meta and flask seems infinitely better than added resistance.

Intellect increases the strength of PotI (personal survivability), mana regen, throughput (the survivability of everyone else in the raid), and longevity. I know of no fight where -2% damage would outweigh 54 intellect and +2% mana. And there is no way that the added resist is superior to 300 intellect. Perhaps it helps you survive longer but what about your raid?


It's a hard mode thing. It's the difference between living and dying; you tend to die very frequently and easily in hard modes, the added survivability is huge.


I strongly disagree. Mastery is only a +% increase to your heals that (most of the time) cannot overheal. The absorb isn't strong enough to add significant EHP and I don't know of any fight where a tank has to have more than his maximum health or even where that would be useful.

I can only believe that 25 man is even more different from 10 man than I thought because in my experience in 10 mans there is little benefit in smoothing a tank's health vs. overall HPS.

It seems like if you geared for maximum HPS you'd give the other healers in your raid more mana and time to spend cross healing the tanks and that would be infinitely better at smoothing a tank's HP than our mastery.


How do you react when a tank suddenly drops below 50% health? You try and drop enough healing on the tank to make sure that he won't die and to get his health to stabilize again. How do you do that? Big heals, fast heals or cooldowns. Big heals and fast heals are inefficient and cost a lot of mana and cooldowns are limited. If the tank keeps dipping low, you'll run out of mana and cooldowns pretty fast. What if the tank drops to 60% instead of 50% or 40%? Are you going to need to drop as much mana to top him off? Are the other healers going to ignore their assignments to heal the tank?

Healing is a lot more touchy-feely than it is about numbers and HPS. One of the best ways to compare the effects of mastery vs healing through the damage would be by looking at what crushing blows did back BC: tank's health is going up and down smoothly, a crushing blow lands, everybody panics, tank lives but the raid now has less mana and less cooldowns to play with. Mastery alleviates or prevents this. That's what makes it so much better for tank healing.
85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
07/04/2011 12:53 PMPosted by Atrahasis
This virtually eliminates BoL. Your thoroughput takes a huge hit.
This only matters if you A) have multiple tanks you're responsible for healing, and B) you give a crap about maximum HPS for the meters. You sound like you just care about your HPS.

And to be honest the Beacon tank isn't a whole lot of responsibility. You're only healing to heal damage, and his healing comes from your other healing - its meant as an assist not a second focus. You can use it that way, but it gets tricky when you have to heal that tank to make up for the lacking of the Beacon healing - then what happens to your other tank? No matter what you do Beacon spread between two targets is almost always an assist.

07/04/2011 04:02 PMPosted by Spiritscar
I'm not sure who you are (or who you think you are) but why should anyone care what you have to say about our mastery? Or about anything related to our class?
Because he's a Paladin and he has explored avenues you refuse to. He actually knows what hes talking about as opposed to having read about. :D

07/04/2011 04:02 PMPosted by Spiritscar
It seems like if you geared for maximum HPS you'd give the other healers in your raid more mana and time to spend cross healing the tanks and that would be infinitely better at smoothing a tank's HP than our mastery.
Are you advocating that preventing damage is NOT better than healing damage quickly?

Assuming that Haste were twice as good at healing damage quickly as Mastery was at simply preventing it, what is to stop a raid from having one of BOTH types of healers? It was already said that Shaman, Druids, and Priests are all better at healing up that damage than we are - you're only playing catchup by using Haste - why not embrace what ONLY we can do (and Disc) and pick up some Mastery?
85 Dwarf Paladin
11575
07/04/2011 04:44 PMPosted by Atrahasis
How do you react when a tank suddenly drops below 50% health?
In a pinch word of glory. With enough haste you weave in dl and hl and let the riptides and hots take care of the rest. It's not wotlk kids you have time to heal in between and use effecient methods of healing.


No, you most definitely don't have time to reactively heal tanks in hard modes. Tanks fall over dead within 2 seconds all the time. Between latency and human reaction times, this means that it's unlikely to that you'll have time to "heal in between and use efficient methods of healing".
85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
07/04/2011 04:44 PMPosted by Atrahasis
How do you react when a tank suddenly drops below 50% health?
In a pinch word of glory. With enough haste you weave in dl and hl and let the riptides and hots take care of the rest. It's not wotlk kids you have time to heal in between and use effecient methods of healing.
So you save your 3 Holy Power for emergencies? You rely on other healers to make up for the sudden tank dip in health and continue on your merry way?

You claim Haste is more ideal for picking that health up, and it is, but you're already expanding upon why it is not as potent as reducing the damage in the first place.
85 Human Paladin
5795
How do you do that? Big heals, fast heals or cooldowns. Big heals and fast heals are inefficient and cost a lot of mana and cooldowns are limited. If the tank keeps dipping low, you'll run out of mana and cooldowns pretty fast. What if the tank drops to 60% instead of 50% or 40%? Are you going to need to drop as much mana to top him off? Are the other healers going to ignore their assignments to heal the tank?


I haven't had this experience in T11 or T12. Appropriately stacking int, spirit and haste allow you the flexibility of not healing your beaconed tank and going to raid/other tanks due to faster casts. Most tank burst damage is on predictable timers and there are an abundance of external cooldowns when needed (for 25mans anyway).

If a tank spikes from messing up a mechanic or a bad avoidance/block streak haste again allows you to react faster with your large heals that is relatively sustainable due to the int/spirit stacking. I've completed all available content and I just haven't seen the kind of tank damage you're talking about. Tank damage certainly isn't high enough to warrant gimping yourself to an extremely niche role; in my opinion anyway.

It's a hard mode thing. It's the difference between living and dying; you tend to die very frequently and easily in hard modes, the added survivability is huge.


If you were a class with weak/no personal cooldowns I could understand this; but holy paladins already shine above any other healer in the survivability department. I don't see the need to lose meta gem bonuses, flask and a 2nd trinket (though you probably use it for mastery).

We already passively self heal (it's still too good), have 2 immunities (1 being physical only granted), have Lay on Hands (generally saved for tanks sure, but still), 2 sprints, 40% magical reduction on a 40 second cooldown WHILE sprinting (which is completely overpowered). You don't need more than that; even during bleeding edge hardmode progression.

Was a nice read though.
85 Human Paladin
8765
I'm not sure who you are (or who you think you are) but why should anyone care what you have to say about our mastery? Or about anything related to our class?

Or rather, why should anyone care what you have to say over what anyone else has to say? You imply you're some kind of expert Holy Paladin yet you've killed one more FL boss than I have and I'd consider myself fairly mediocre.


I'm pretty terrible myself, but if someone with a record like:

43x Algalon
56x Heroic Anubarak
30x Heroic Lich King
11x Heroic Nefarian
11x Heroic Sinestra
13x Heroic Al'Akir

suggests something, I would think it's worth taking seriously for a few minutes, before calling in the nice men with those pretty white straitjackets.
85 Dwarf Paladin
11575
I haven't had this experience in T11 or T12. Appropriately stacking int, spirit and haste allow you the flexibility of not healing your beaconed tank and going to raid/other tanks due to faster casts. Most tank burst damage is on predictable timers and there are an abundance of external cooldowns when needed (for 25mans anyway).

If a tank spikes from messing up a mechanic or a bad avoidance/block streak haste again allows you to react faster with your large heals that is relatively sustainable due to the int/spirit stacking. I've completed all available content and I just haven't seen the kind of tank damage you're talking about. Tank damage certainly isn't high enough to warrant gimping yourself to an extremely niche role; in my opinion anyway.


Halfus, Ignacious, Cho'gall, Magmaw, Omnotron and Nefarian had some pretty nasty burst at some points or another. Either enough damage to always be scary or frequent enough that you couldn't always cover for all of them with cooldowns. The survivability is just personal preference, and it's certainly saved me and helped me plenty of times.
85 Dwarf Paladin
11575
Halfus, Ignacious, Cho'gall, Magmaw, Omnotron and Nefarian had some pretty nasty burst at some points or another


Every single example can be properly handled with mitigation cooldowns from your tanks and burst healing from you and your other healers. No need to kill the pig if no one wants bacon.


Except when you 5 heal a fight in order to get a kill early and you have a lot less cooldowns and coordination. Keep in mind that what I'm talking about doesn't apply to farm content, it applies to when a Paladin's guild is learning a fight and doesn't know what the hell is going on.
Edited by Zaroua on 7/4/2011 7:55 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Mage
13125
Thats the point of progression content. To learn the mechanics of a fight and be able to anticipate when you as a healer will have to put out the hps required to get through the bursty phases of tank healing that you think exist. You shouldnt neuter your arguable one strength because your guild doesnt watch videos, use raid timers and you feel like playing a mindless bubble spam. With the amount of videos, websites and even the in game dungeon journal you should be able to anticipate virtually every situation you need. If you dont wanna do your homework thats fine to, play the mastery stacking paladin. If you goal is to min/max and play holy paladin at its full potential chase haste and spirit.


There's a huge difference between progression when there are videos and strategies scattered all over the internet for the fight you're working on, and progression when only a few guilds in the world have killed the fight you're on, and they have no intention of revealing anything about it to their rivals.

Stacking mastery isn't neutering your one strength, it's choosing to focus on one particular role at the expense of others. If the advantages of mastery are palpable, then simply linking logs of someone doing more overall output without it is silly. To offer a DPS equivalent - I could AoE the whelps on sinestra and get an increase in the overall damage I do on the encounter, but to do so as arcane would be silly when I'm far more specialised into doing single target dps - other classes/specs can aoe much more efficiently and effectively than I can, so I stick to doing what I do best.

You should attempt to actually debunk his points, rather than sticking your fingers in your ears chanting "MASTERY SUCKS U JUST WANNA B DISC". Explain why you think the benefits of spirit and haste have more benefit to your raid overall (linking logs of high hps is not a substitute for this).
Edited by Kolzi on 7/4/2011 8:18 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6795
Thats the point of progression content. To learn the mechanics of a fight and be able to anticipate when you as a healer will have to put out the hps required to get through the bursty phases of tank healing that you think exist. You shouldnt neuter your arguable one strength because your guild doesnt watch videos, use raid timers and you feel like playing a mindless bubble spam. With the amount of videos, websites and even the in game dungeon journal you should be able to anticipate virtually every situation you need. If you dont wanna do your homework thats fine to, play the mastery stacking paladin. If you goal is to min/max and play holy paladin at its full potential chase haste and spirit.

I'm not sure you're entirely aware of what Zaroua is doing. First of all, he raids 25s, where responsibility is much more distributed and you can get away with being much less versatile. Secondly, his guild apparently gives him a single job to do: watch one tank target. Under this extremely strict and admittedly rare paradigm, it's understandable that equally rare stat priorities may be more viable than otherwise. It's also sort of silly to suggest that Premonition doesn't do their homework, but whatever.

I'm not personally convinced that mastery stacking is the most effective way to handle such an assignment, but if mastery is going to be worthwhile anywhere this is pretty much the textboook case for it. I'd tentatively say that this would be roughly equivalent to the occasional top-100 guild FoL builds in T9.
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