Holy Paladin: Mastery

45 Draenei Shaman
450
07/17/2011 07:12 PMPosted by Gríffith
TLDR version pls. (overall. i read OP and a couple of pages)


mastery is gewd

In organized 25 mans where you can specialize.
90 Human Warrior
10380
TLDR version pls. (overall. i read OP and a couple of pages)


Two new gearing options have come out of the 4.2 changes.

1) Specialized Mastery/Spirit build that focuses solely on healing one tank exceptionally well at the cost of most/all raid healing. Potentially useful in 25 man environment to allow other healers to focus on raid healing while you maintain a tank.

2) Low Spirit Holy Light build focusing on raising mastery/crit/haste at the cost of large amounts of spirit. (Somewhat of a "Flash of Light build" from Wrath where you pump up your efficient heal to the point that it's a potent throughput spell at the cost of making your big heals more unsustainable.)

Secondly, mastery is considered more consistent throughput than it was prior to 4.2.

85 Human Paladin
3175
After a little testing and a little simple math (the only kind I can handle), I conclude that if you put 100 points into mastery, it will increase the healing of a single cast of one of your single target spells by about 78 (assuming, of course, that the shield does not go to waste).

I don't know how to math out how much of an increase in healing 100 points of spellpower will have on a single cast, but it seems it would be helpful to know this, to make it easier to visualize more clearly how to compare the value of, say, a 40 intellect (ignoring the mana increase and spell crit of course) gem vs a 40 mastery gem (assuming no socket bonuses).

A similar value for crit could also be interesting, as would haste (though I can't imagine how one would calculate such a thing for haste, considering practically speaking, we don't typically hardcast a spell without interruption for very long at a time, and the benefits of high haste go beyond merely increasing heals per second).

Edit: After a little testing, it appears that 100 points of spellpower will increase the healing of a single cast of holy light by 48-52 (these results are nowhere near precise, but it's an estimate at least to work with until someone with more expertise can provide better input). I don't know yet if spellpower scales differently with different spells. If the scaling is similar, then the conclusion would seem to be that if one is merely single-target healing with holy light, one would get around 50% more benefit from stats in mastery than from stats in spellpower (again, speaking very simplistically, ignoring factors such as the benefits of absorption, etc).
Edited by Dialectician on 7/17/2011 9:34 PM PDT
91 Blood Elf Paladin
9375
Holy Paladins and stats:

Intellect - increases healing potency, provides a larger mana pool, adds spell crit. This is the go-to stat because it increases healing strength and longevity (bigger heals and can cast them longer.)

Spirit - increase mana regeneration (and hit...) Good stat for longevity.

Haste - increases healing per unit time, but the trade off is that casting more spells will sap more of your mana faster. Increases healing strength per unit time, but at the cost of longevity. Note that haste also makes up for slower reaction times.

Crit - grants "free" extra healing. Increases healing strength (and potentially longevity due to needing to cast less heals) on average over a long period/fight. The trade-off is that it's unreliable and one often sees crit dumped into overhealing. When the crit healing is useful, though, it is an increase in strength and longevity.

Mastery - grants "free" extra healing in the form of mitigation, should the target take that much damage over the next 15 seconds. Increases longevity, strength towards the next damage intake.



Some of these stats play nice together, some do not. Mastery and Crit, for example, work well together since they both will increase efficiency and the crit will make the mastery shields bigger when it happens. Also, since mastery will have less force to the heals if intellect (or even haste) is(are) being sacrificed, then the crits may not tend to overheal as much.

Intellect plays well with everything since it increases effectively everything (similar to Defense for tanks pre-Cata where it would boost dodge, block, and parry.)


Some parings, though, may be less favorable. For example, haste and crit has an odd sort of effect in that you're throwing more heals out, but if they're critting a lot, you're going to be seeing a lot of useless overhealing. As of 4.2, haste and mastery work well together (before haste reduced the usefulness of mastery since the shields didn't stack.)


Haste must be paired with a longevity stat of some kind otherwise the Paladin won't be able to heal well due to ooming too much. Though other than haste, ALL of our stats promote longevity.



As a person that liked FoL/SS healing in Wrath, I'm fully open to new ways of doing things. However, I do believe that Haste/Spirit is a good secondary combination for a lot of situations. It makes up for Human error, lag, reaction time, ect. These are all good things, though somewhat intangible.

However, other setups may be nice. With a lot of mastery (or crit), then one could afford to back off on Spirit due to the increased efficiency, for example.

It all depends on what you're doing.


What I think may be interesting is a mastery/spirit or mastery/crit build for 5 mans, since 5 mans function as "single tank fights" pretty much all the time. At least, when things are going how they're supposed to...
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
2) Low Spirit Holy Light build focusing on raising mastery/crit/haste at the cost of large amounts of spirit. (Somewhat of a "Flash of Light build" from Wrath where you pump up your efficient heal to the point that it's a potent throughput spell at the cost of making your big heals more unsustainable.)


You just have low spirit and thats it, You maintain use of your judgment from mp5 but you make more use off your efficient spell hitting for 10k plus. You can cast DL just as a haste spirit build as long as you keep your judgments in check. Mastery + Crit build isn't all about casting HL, you can cast DL too.

It also takes advantage of the WoG buffs. With WoG critting for 55k, it makes it better XD
Edited by Josémourinho on 7/17/2011 10:58 PM PDT
91 Blood Elf Paladin
9375
Oh, one other thing. The healing hierarchy:

completely avoiding the damage, mitigating the damage, healing the damage with a very large amount of fast heals, healing the damage with slow and large heals.



Our mastery does none of these things. What HPaly mastery does is this:

Heal the damage (with whatever heal) and place a shield against future/follow-up damage.



Now, this may be a "So what? Same difference!" to a lot of you. But allow me this example:



A tank takes a hit. He's now 40k from his max health (easy numbers.) You have two options for dealing with this:

Cast a heal for 40k, bringing him to full.
Cast a heal for 30k with a 10k shield, bringing him close to full and granting him a shield.


Which is better?


After the damage has been caused, you're playing catch-up.[/quote]

So you aren't "mitigating future damage", you're catching up on damage already done. If this is so, it's better to heal the tank fully than heal him partially and give him a shield.


Exception: If the tank had only taken 30k damage, the 40k heal would be overhealing, whereas the 30k heal + 10k shield would heal to full and grant mitigation on the following hit.



I guess what I'm saying is, our mastery isn't PW:S. We can't cast it before damage and it absorb the damage. We cast our heals in [I]response
to damage, not preempting it, generally.

While 15 seconds and stacking shields means you CAN preemptively cast DL on a tank at full health to give him a shield, you have to ask yourself, is this really better than wating on the damage and casting DL? Which is better for your mana and your tank's survival?

In some cases, the shield will be. But understand this means you're going to be overhealing a lot and inefficient on your mana.



However, something a scrub like me knows (because I'm an intelligent scrub, mind you :p), is that what's important isn't HPS, HPM, or efficiency.

It's that the boss dies and at least one person in your party/raid outlasts it.



With that in mind, a mastery build can have it's use. But let's not be under a delusion here. You aren't mitigating future damage, you're playing catch-up on damage taken. This is because, unlike Disc Priests, Healadins don't have a castable shield spell anymore (if SS could even really be called that...though I really do wish we could have it back, I liked it... -sniffle-)

As such, just the way it is being a Paladin, we're playing catch-up, not preemptively shielding, most of the time. Unless you're specifically working to preemtpively mitigate and damn the expense (since you're going to be chain casting DL to keep the shields up), then the mastery shield build is not where you place it in the hierarchy.


How about this:

Completely avoid the damage > mitigating the damage > healing the damage with a very large amount of fast heals > healing the damage with slow and large heals > healing part of the damage and placing a shield to mitigate follow-up damage while leaving the tank at less than full health.


From this perspective, a mastery build is on the bottom of the hierarchy.

However, I would submit that there ARE cases where this hierarchy shifts, though they can be rare (for example, you want to take damage in part of Heroic Ozruk.)

Also note I say less than full health. If your build is still able to heal the tank to full and THEN place a shield against a future hit? Then it combines the 3/4 spot with the 2 spot in the hierarchy, thus making it better than 3 or 4 instead of worse.
91 Blood Elf Paladin
9375


Cast a heal for 40k, bringing him to full.
Cast a heal for 30k with a 10k shield, bringing him close to full and granting him a shield.


Cast a heal for 40k, bringing him to full.
Cast a heal for 40k with a 10k shield, bringing him to full and granting him a shield.

You clearly have little to no experience healing as a holy paladin nor do you fully understand the mechanics and how they work together in our tool box. You don't understand how important MITIGATING damage in a heroic raid environment can really be.

You have a strong opinion, like everyone else here, but there's not reason to even acknowledge that opinion when what you are suggesting as "bad" is clearly outperforming anything you are capable of.



Let's try reading comprehension, shall we?

When did I say it was bad?

Mitigating damage before it happens is GOOD. It's when you're cutting down your healing of damage already done and not providing more mitigation to make up the difference that it's weaker. In the case I listed, healing for 40k is better than 30k and a 10k shield.

On the other hand, healing for 30k with a 15k shield? Might be better. Or, alternatively, if the tank was only 30k (or less) from max health, in which case the extra healing of the 40k is wasted and the 10k shield is undisputedly better.


Further, what makes you think my point of view here is strong? Did I not say (did you read the post right above it?) that I like alternative styles of doing things and think they are worth exploring?



So, you're just a fanboy or a mastery apologist who can't argue a point well OR read? You can only insult other people?

Of all the people to attack in this thread, one that's open to trying different styles and believes that you can (and should if you're going all out) tailor your weights and healing strategy to different situations is probably not the best one to attack.


Also: There's more to this game than heroic modes. A good discussion is going to talk about all the different ones and, if there's a clear winner for some of them, come to an explanation of why that is.



"Clearly" little to no experience? Hm...and from what do you infer that?

That I used simple numbers for an example? That I even said so before introducing the example?


Head? Remove yourself from arse. It's easier to see things. <_<



EDIT: To everyone else, sorry for the harsh reply. I just dislike trolls that can't read, throw around insults, and do NOTHING to further the conversation.

Maybe if he had introduced some counter examples instead of attacking my "experience"?



EDIT2: In an effort to continue trying to contribute to the post...

Oh, to elucidate further:

In what situation would a tank at 10k less than max health with a 10k shield be better than a tank at max health?

Note that, either way, the tank will have 10k health (for all practical purposes) for the next hit. They're arguably equal, just one looks prettier with the green bar.

In fact, an odd way of thinking about it is that the tank's health bar is a mitigation shield. As long as it's greater than 1, the tank is alive, having survived/"mitigated" damage. Think of it like a shield/force field that doesn't decay over time if the tank isn't taking damage. As opposed to "temporary" shields like IH, PW:S, and the like - shields that likewise absorb damage, but do so on top of normal health...but that have a limited time duration in exchange.


Thinking about it this way:

If health + shield > max health,
Shield is preferred.

If health + shield <= max health,
Shield or heal (provided shield + heal = alternative heal, my 30+10 vs 40 case) are equal in value...almost.

The heal is still SLIGHTLY more valuable in that it's "permanent" (e.g. doesn't have a time limit on it.)
Edited by Arthinas on 7/18/2011 1:03 AM PDT
91 Blood Elf Paladin
9375
@Arthinas - For starters, you aren't specd into long word, and you're using lolcleansing glyph. For someone with so much to say and so much bogus, WRONG, theorycraft, you don't even know how to spec/glyph.

I'll shut down your stupid 10k health argument, the heal> the shield blahblah. For starters, any minor increment of health that isn't healed up will get topped by hots and indirect aoe heals fairly quick, so that shield will probably be nearly if not fully effective. If you don't like that argument let's look at it this way. If my set-up is avoiding mastery and I cast a DL on the tank I'll see roughly 15% of that DL in the shield. If my set-up is for mastery I'll see 25-30% of that heal as a shield. Now in order for haste to equal that you'll have to cast again, well another hard cast that is, just for the "benefits" of haste to be seen.


Funny that while advocating for another style of gearing and playing, you are pretty set in what is the "right" glyph setup to have. <_< (You did mean Last Word, right?)

I was giving a simple example. More realistic numbers would be something like a tank with a 70k deficit and getting a 50k heal vs a heal+shield combo. I wasn't arguing for haste.

...for example, if I was, I would point out the haste would get out faster (assuming the heal+shield = the hasted heal along...which is a horrid assumption), which would be very important if a large spike was incoming. A shield doesn't help if it (and the heal it's attached to) don't land until AFTER the tank takes the big hit if said hit has a chance of killing him. Though you'd have to have a lot of things going badly for normal encounters to see such a situation (in heroics, it presumably happens more often.)


I'm simply saying if the amounts were equal, either heal or heal+shield, then the heal is better IF it's not overhealing. This is simplistic, there's nothing "wrong" about it. If you want to apply this to a situation with HoTs and other heals flying around, then the argument becomes the sum of all said heals in terms of overhealing (it doesn't help the raid much if you don't overheal but you cause the Priest or Druid to through their HoTs on the tank.)

In which case if the sum of the heals is NOT overhealing the tank, than it's better than less healing with a damage mitigation shield if the sum of said healing plus the shield is less than or equal to the raw healing otherwise.



Of course, it depends on what stats you swap out.

If you're swapping haste for mastery, and ONLY haste for mastery, then the heals will be the same size, the shields will be larger, but the HPS will be lower (while the HPM will be higher.)


I was simply pointing out that our mastery doesn't always "prevent damage" in the hierarchy the OP was going for. It does prevent damage...but on the next hit. If the tank isn't getting healed from the hit he already took, this is no different than if you simply healed that total amount. The only case the shield comes into play is if the shield plus the health is greater than the tanks max health. Then it provides extra.

Otherwise, you'd be just as well off gearing for crit, since when it hits, a crit heal is going to trump a haste one (since it would take two hasted heals to equal the value of one crit heal, and the crit will be more mana efficient), and it's also going to beat out mastery (again, provided the crit isn't overhealing.)


And this still doesn't get around the problem that if the tank's already at max health, you CAN stack shields on him/her, but unless there's a solid need to, you're mostly just burning mana in a highly inefficient way to get that mitigation.

In some cases, this is the right call to make. In others, it will cause your mana pool and potentially your other healers some problems.




But counter the point if you want, don't simply say it's wrong (and no, "there will be HoTs and 10k is trivial" is not a good counter. <_< 10k was an example number, I can give you larger deficits if it makes you feel better.)

If health + shield < max health of the tank, then how is it different than the tank simply having all of that in health? Is 80k health plus a 20k shield really better than 100k health?

And if so, why?



EDIT: I should also say, I'm not knocking a mastery build. If you're trading haste for mastery, I don't really see that as a horrible trade. Now, trading INTELLECT for mastery? I'll probably argue against that a bit. But for the most part that isn't going to come up except in gems and some enchants.

I believe it's a valid strategy for specific situations, particularly in 25 mans where healers can be more specialized.


Oh, but wait, I'm a scrub that doesn't know anything and is always wrong.

So that means a mastery build must be WRONG because I'm advocating it. Right? Excellent logic you have there...
Edited by Arthinas on 7/18/2011 3:00 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
The tank gets hit alot every 15 seconds. The mastery shield is usually used.
100 Draenei Paladin
20630
Baleroc down. Quite happy with how my build performed, although for that fight crit/haste is a better choice to maximize Beacon a bit more and because (ironically enough) my hit points are too low to provide meaningfully large Mastery shields.

I had a 1.2 million Divine Light crit on one of my attempts (270 stacks), but at those stacks a single point WoG caps Mastery shield D:

We ended up killing using the last mentioned strategy of single tank (yay decimation blade with 1.4 mill hp), two paladin, druid, disc priest. Paladins torment, druid floating but mostly tank, and disc tank.

Logs will probably go public soonish but here's screenshot breakdowns in the meantime:
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/kaikulu/hbalekillhps.jpg
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/kaikulu/hbalekillhealbreakdown.jpg
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/kaikulu/hbalekilltankbreakdown.jpg
85 Human Paladin
3450
Arthinas I truly hope you are simply trolling over active or gullible Paladins. However the more I read your faulty conclusions and disastrous grammar I come to the conclusion that you just have no earthly idea what you are talking about. A wall of text with loose hypothetical data 'if we can even use that word' convinces no one. I can only hope no one has ever listened to you in the past and that the collective of young Paladins and old will ignore your babbling in the future.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ipneh70q2bljci17/sum/healingDone/?s=6567&e=7022

Reports for tonight.
Don't even comment on how many times we wiped on Rag and what reasons why.
85 Dwarf Paladin
6530




Mitigating damage before it happens is GOOD. It's when you're cutting down your healing of damage already done and not providing more mitigation to make up the difference that it's weaker. In the case I listed, healing for 40k is better than 30k and a 10k shield.



Except that isn't the case for holy paladins. The base heal would be the same if they're the same spell. The only difference would be the shield size.
Edited by Padaan on 7/18/2011 8:35 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
Mitigating damage before it happens is GOOD. It's when you're cutting down your healing of damage already done and not providing more mitigation to make up the difference that it's weaker. In the case I listed, healing for 40k is better than 30k and a 10k shield.


if a haste spirit paladin heals for 40k so does the crit mastery paladin.

Crit Mastery Paladin values Int over Mastery.

But i doubt the lost gems put into mastery will cause a sudden 10k less healing for the Mastery > Int Paladin.
Edited by Josémourinho on 7/18/2011 10:28 AM PDT
100 Draenei Paladin
20630
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0kjzfoj10p2kb1we/

H Baleroc kill log now public for those interested.
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