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Speaking as someone who was a Mastery Paladin (and would like to be one again at one point. It's kind of fun actually)...
1) Mastery does nothing to smooth the bumps in healing on the tank like Haste does.
2) Mastery loses once you start considering PotI and HR.
3) Haste increases HPS faster then Mastery does. In a case where you don't know the HPS required (I.E. Progression) Haste is better.
4) You should try to avoid healing your beacon target whenever possible. Tower of Raidiance is not more efficient then healing the other tank.
Other things that are helpful to know:
5) If you've hit the required HPS for a fight by a comfortable margin, it should be okay to shift out Haste for Mastery.
5a) You still need to make sure that you're casting fast enough so the tank doesn't die between casts.
5b) When the next set of content (or hard-mode or boss) comes along, you will probably need to pull that haste gear out. So shifting to mastery is probably not the best idea.
6) Tower of Radiance is a 3 point consolation prize for a poor healing situation. It doesn't actually change how a paladin is supposed to heal.
That said, I do not recommend gearing for Mastery, even in a Tank-only healing situation. Even if it provided more single-target HPS then Haste did, I would still suggest that you get a reasonable amount of Haste before focusing on Mastery.
Shut up, all you have done is flame posters and discussion. I swear you must be someone in this discussion or someone has probably told you to hurl insults at whoever disagrees with Zaroua.
Probably a fanboy.
Edited by Josémourinho on 7/4/2011 9:05 PM PDT
Because it is the more versatile stat for extremes of progression with minimal gear. I can guarantee it is not chosen because it makes healing those fights easier, but it was originally chosen because it makes healing those fights POSSIBLE. I highly doubt Sinestra world firsts would have been done as quickly without Haste making that high output possible.
If you want a stat with very specific pros and cons you might like Mastery. It does what it is designed to do quite well.
1) Mastery does smooth damage intake, what exactly are "bumps" in healing? Streaks of no crits? Mistakes?
2) Obviously HR makes Haste the superior stat, were we focused on AOE encounters. What is important is in between Haste plateaus which stat is best? If Mastery is best, and by a large margin, then the only time you should shoot for a Haste plateau is when you are near it by virtue of unavoidable stats.
3) Granted. Haste is the superior stat for encounters where HPS needs are unknown. So is healing assignments - you know, where you go "That tank takes way too much damage, lets put another healer on him." Not a really useful argument, IMO.
4) This is wrong. Beacon as a utility can be used two ways, completely independently of ToR. A) you put it on a secondary target so that your primary target heals also heal another, or B) you put it on your primary target so that your secondary target heals (raid, off tank, self, etc) continue to heal your healing assignment.
In the case of B Tower of Radiance has a STRONG efficiency benefit for a single healing target, while A grants more benefit, but spread amongst multiple targets. Both are correct ways to use this ability - or do you think we should be Beaconing a DPS in 5 mans while we heal our tank? You seem to think B is not viable... yet people use it constantly in 5 player dungeons.
5) "If you've hit the required HPS for a fight by a comfortable margin, it should be okay to shift out Haste for Mastery." - I totally agree. Keep in mind when you say this, the HPS requirements might be hit purely by the 17%+ Haste gained through talents and raid buffs, your spell power, and furthermore through your Crit and Mastery levels (which do actually add significant HPS potential, just not as much as Haste).
5a) Actually, you need to be providing enough healing so that the tank does not die from insufficient HPS. Whether the tank takes 2 hits per 1 heal taken from you, or takes 2 heals per 1 hit taken from the boss, what matters is the healing matches or exceeds the damage intake. Mastery makes your heals hit harder, Haste makes them hit faster, both can sufficiently heal through damage regardless of heal frequency vs hit frequency.
5b) This is a nonsense argument - you can certainly build a set for each style if you like, but barring gimmick encounters such as Chimaeron or that Firelands boss with massive healing boost both stats are sufficient for most encounters. How often do you ask a Disc Priest to spec Holy, or vice verse?
6) Actually, Tower of Radiance opens up an avenue for Paladins to heal that would otherwise be unavailable. It does far more for our healing options than many talents.
Edited by Rabel on 7/4/2011 9:44 PM PDT
Lesigh. You know I actually had to spend 3 seconds to not respond angrily. Trying to get better at knee-jerk responses.
What follows here is my experience as a mastery paladin and changing from Mastery to Haste. Disregard it if you like, but saying this is worthless would be... foolish I think.
Background: I am a casual raider in 10man. Our guild is social, not raiding, and I like it that way. Our guild has traditionally had more issues with DPS then healing or tanking, because I tend to slot the more responsible people as Tanks and Healers over DPS. As such we tend to hit enrage timers and the like. Typically we have a Tank Healer (me), a Raid Healer, and a Mid Healer (Heals the Beacon and the raid).
Before I changed to Haste whenever I checked my effective IH healing it was always the appropriate % of my effective healing from the associated sources. That is, Bubble-munching and the like occured at about the same rate as other sources did. I was happy with my regen, and I produced more then my fair share of healing: When I wasn't present in raids, the other healers hit about 8-9k HPS. When I was there, they hit about 6k. (I usually hit 12-13k). The only fight I needed an outside mana CD for was Council, and that's so that I would have mana in P3, because I tended to burn alot of it in P1 (I beaconed the Feludius tank and healed the Ingacious tank). On extremely rare occasions I would lose a tank due to my heal not casting fast enough. For comparison, my DLs cast at ~2 seconds raid buffed.
When I changed to Haste I noticed the following changes: My Endurance felt like it went down, and in a panic situation I produced about the same HPS but my mana pool would drain alot faster. The cases of me losing tanks during a cast feels like it has gone down. My raid healing from hitting HR has improved dramatically. My DLs cast at ~1.85 seconds.
My observation on the rolling shield change is that it doesn't have that big of an impact for a Mastery Paladin. A Mastery Paladin had low haste already, so the odds were that the absorb on the Tank would have already been eaten by the time the next heal hit. That's still pretty much the case now. The big change happened when IH went to 15 seconds (and I was still Mastery then btw). The rolling shield change only really affects those who are currently gearing haste.
Another side note: Mastery Paladins don't require much skill. With a Haste Paladin you have to choose your heal, and choosing wrong hurts alot because of the healing lost to overheals. Mastery is a more efficient stat to start with, and (especially now with bubble rolling) suffers less from choosing the wrong heal. Meaning: if you suck at choosing when to cast HL or DL, then Mastery will punish you less then Haste will. If you're good at that, then you will get more healing from Haste.
Mastery paladins will be punished SEVERELY if they are not careful about DL usage. I dare say they that the difference between the good and the bad mastery paladins will be the overhealing of their Divine Light.While this is fairly true, keep in mind that Mastery actually reduces the damage of your overhealing on your healing effectiveness by still providing your shielding output.
Mastery can afford to have higher percentages than Haste and Crit, because that wasted healing does not negatively impact the output caused by the stat.
For example: on the burn phase of Shannox on my kill I was spamming and probably producing 90%+ overhealing - but my shielding was invaluable for preventing the tank from dying to a sudden burst of damage without sufficient healing landing immediately after. Looking back everyone else probably had very high overhealing as well, but mine was by far the most effective. :D
Edited by Rabel on 7/4/2011 10:07 PM PDT
Yes it's obvious. But it is the fact that is most often forgotten when a Mastery Paladin argues against Haste Paladins. It's the progression attitude vs the farm attitude (which supports Mastery).
We use (B) in 5 mans because there is no other healer. In a raid the only way I can recall being in situation (B) is if I'm assigned to raid healing, in which case you go Haste for HR. I don't gear for 5-mans and I'm probably more mired in that content then you are.
Time till heal lands. If the heal doesn't get there in time the tank is dead. Taking the absurd example, it doesn't matter if I can put out 50k HPS if it takes me 4 seconds to deliver it and the tank dies in that time. Reality is more like 11k HPS in 2 seconds, but it can still happen.
It's not nonsense. It's me pointing out that if you choose to gear for a fixed HPS eventually that monster of a "I don't know how much HPS I need to do" will raise it's head. It's not a strong one, but then again, it's point 5b, do you expect it to be amazing? *Grins*
It's still a consolation prize. Blizzard has even said so. The talent could be sooo much more without even much trouble. For instance, if it increased direct healing on the beacon target by 1/2/3% that would make it a more interesting talent. Or if it made it so that IH bubbles on the beacon stacked up to maximum of 1/3 the targets health, that would be awesome. Or if it made IH on the target 10/20/30% times more effective that would be cool too.
ToR did change pally healing back when HL was on it. When they removed that those options went away. (I still believe the appropriate change was to remove LoD off of Beacon.)
Anyways I go sleepy now.
This. Spamming DL as either Mastery or Haste willy-nilly isn't good That said, Mastery suffers far less from it then Haste does.
Spamming any heal but your efficient heal when the tank is topped is stupid.
But the main question is wouldn't a mastery paladin's cast be too slow to stack that shield past the first heal?
That wasn't addressed at all.
Interesting argument for the rest of the fights but for baleroc, i guess you guys will all have a haste gear set up for that since Mastery will cap out in about 2-3 casts.
I'll keep this spec in mind if we ever need a fully pidgeonholed tank healer who can barely help out on the raid. I'm still not convinced that it is better than haste for HPS but the EH could provide benefits.
However, we need more data! Especially on heroic encounters and see where this spec ends up.
You cannot honestly claim that this is a good alternative spec when only normals have been done now!
Admittedly I have only done 10's, and I haven't done hardmodes or FL's cause I left for Afghanistan a week after my nef kill :( but... IMO IH was a week attempt by blizz for holy pally's. I think all they did was give it a new shine so that holy pally's won't turn their noses up at mastery gear. Congrats on your success OP, but IH was never and probably never will be my focus for a healing stat.
Then why were we spamming HL in wrath?
We have tools that are directly affected by haste, tools which make us more flexible healers. Blizz said they wanted to lessen the "tank healer niche" with Cata, and by slowing us down and giving us raid healing tools that's how they lessened our "specialization." By creating an uber one tank healing mastery set, your putting yourself right back into that narrow zone that blizz has tried to get rid of. If you're min/maxing for a world first, then glhf, but for general healing a haste build is better suited for a wider range of encounters.
Additionally, you are creating more opportunities for yourself if you don't drop haste. The vast majority of my time raiding t11 content was with a 2 holy pally, 1 other healer set up. Neither my self or the other holy pally went mastery and we were able to consistently provide enough raid healing output and tank healing output to win. There were even fights where I was the raid healer when we had a disc priest with us. I don't feel this would have been possible without haste.
Mastery stacking will only take us back to the old days where if a group had "to many tank healers" pally's would be left to sit.
But the main question is wouldn't a mastery paladin's cast be too slow to stack that shield past the first heal?
I did address this. And my answer was along the lines of what you're suggesting: That a mastery Paladin's cast is indeed too slow to usually allow it to stack beyond the first heal. Hence why rolling bubbles don't really help a Mastery Paladin (it's more of a boost for Haste Paladins).
And yeah, I was looking at gatekeeper, and Mastery is gonna be aweful there. It's probably gonna cap out too fast.
I fooled around with a mastery based build on tue and wed, due to attendance I was only able to kill beth and shannox while only being able to attempt lord rhy while having this set up.
I didn't read too much into this post i'll admit; however, while I was playing with this build I gemmed int with int/spr for blue and mast/int for yellow sockets and reforged and geared for mastery. That being said I sat at 26% for my mastery with very low haste and 17% crit before raid buffs.
I was healing strictly the main tank on beth going up to the upper floor etc, my healing over all was rather low for that fight due to the downtime of going up and down and being focus'd on the tank for the majority of it. On shannox I was happy with the results that I had, I was strictly healing only the shannox tank and I was consistently on top or very close to the top of meters (possibly due to my tank eating several immo traps) but none the less upon the kill I was about .3-.5% lower than one of our resto druids on the encounter. My recount of the kill showed my mastery being around 30% of my healing done other attempts it was anywhere from 25%-35% of my healing done. Our lord rhy attempts were a massive cluster**** and meters were all over the place.
Note this was all done while having beacon on the tank I was healing, for ToR procs, my basic strat was to push out as many WoG's as possible, I spamed holy light alot when able, during heavy tank damage I used div light + WoG directly after to bring the tank back up and stack a nice bubble at the same time.
All in all, I'm more than likly going to try this out again now that I've had time to play around with it and can try other methods to this this sort of build. I won't say this is the best but I can say that this is viable to an extent.
On a side note if I had logs for my shannox kill I would have posted them however our logger was gone the night of the kill and lord rhy attempts, I do have logs for tuesday however I had changed up my method behind this build between the 2 nights which yielded better results for me. When I have logs of this build I will post them here for others to see.
Edited by Sarah on 7/5/2011 5:15 AM PDT
10 Human Rogue
I'm not sure who you are (or who you think you are) but why should anyone care what you have to say about our mastery? Or about anything related to our class?
We should also add that all those kills were pre-nerf kills. I like how people are saying tank damage is predictable by watching videos, 'read' the fights and so on. Premonition is one of the guilds that actually does progression contents plus going for world / US first kills without any videos out there.
And to sum it out nicely
Love the people treating the guides as if they are set in stone. If Einstein was like one of those guys and afraid of experimenting new stuff, lol, oh god, I think we would still be using campfire only to this day (a bit too extreme?).
Edited by Fireflame on 7/5/2011 8:32 AM PDT
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