Holy Paladin: Mastery

10 Human Rogue
0
The people who did min max their faces off chose haste and by and large continue to do so. Choose your own adventure I suppose.


This is incorrect. For an example?
See Eloderung's current stats or reforging:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/lightbringer/Eloderung/simple

It is crit heavy (sacrificing mainly spirit).
Edited by Fireflame on 7/5/2011 8:29 AM PDT
90 Dwarf Paladin
13090
While this is "potentially" viable what fight are you exactly aiming towards with this in mind? None of the fights at least on normal mode were exactly tank dmg intense, at least in 10 mans there was a fair amount of more raid healing then anything else? Also it just seems so incredibly unviable in a 10 man setting, at least in an environment where you would run 2 hpallies and a raid healer, as what happens if the other hpally dies? You are just so gimped in picking up anyone else's slack or adjusting to their role mid fight simply because of the amount of haste you've lost to gain a shield. Best of luck tonight but i seriously doubt anyone else will be adopting this tactic till heroic rag @!#!s a tank's face or something.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
Why not experiment?

That is my question to most of the people claiming one stat is better than another.

Most of the good paladins are testing new or different secondary stats or they could be doing it for a specific fight.

Either way, it shouldn't be treated as gospel yet until we have actual data on it to see what it does.

You have to observe both quantitative and qualitative data that Elo and Zaroua will get from these tests. Some things you have to see for yourself.

There will be a possible combination of 6 different possible stat allocations (Crit/Mas)(Mas/Haste)(Mas/Spirit)(Spirit/Crit)(Spirit/haste)(Crit/haste).

I guess Elo and Zaroua eliminated the obvious failures to experiment if critting is actually worth anything or the mastery shield itself. ATM i'm basically picking up any gear i can get so i can keep my options open on these specific specs as they could benefit me on some fights.

The main difference between stupid experimenting (Mastery pre 4.2 and Crit pre 4.2) and good experimenting (Mastery and Crit now) is that the stats themselves have changed significantly. Critting could be useful with the double crit and mastery could be useful with the stacking ability.

There should be no shame to be sticking to haste + spirit like some alts/high progression fanboys should not be forcing onto people who want to stick to their guns and believe that spirit and haste is still better.
Edited by Josémourinho on 7/5/2011 8:43 AM PDT
90 Human Warrior
10380
As a tank, I had multiple sets of gear to customize for specific fights. What it really came down to though, aside from the "trick" fights like Anub, I would constantly switch back to my stamina set because it was the most effective at every situation. Even against Anub, I would tank it half the time with my stamina set, granted that was on 10 man.

When I start looking at people suggesting to get multiple full stat weight sets for different encounters, I look back to what I did previously and ask what benefits I get out of it that are going to warrant the change.

Is stacking a specific stat going to change the mechanics of the encounter? (i.e. Block tank anub or you could even say FoL saurfang)

Is stacking a specific stat going to hurt my other stats significantly? (i.e. gearing for FoL made your HL too expensive for the loss of regen.)

Is stacking a specific stat going to pigeon hole you into a situation that you will never get out of? (i.e. Paladins are only tank healers.)

There is a certain amount of acceptance that I can have where I say "Yes, mastery will make tank healing easier" but at the same time I respond with "But I will still stack haste/spirit because it is the best way to go most often." I already notice when the shaman in my group doesn't drop air totem for the 5% casting haste, I couldn't imagine dropping 1000+ haste for mastery.

I think another thing to point out is that this thread really shows the problems with our mastery. If we are to the point where we NEED two different sets of gear because of the ineffectiveness of mastery in fights, then why isn't this something that is getting fixed? At what point in the stat fluctuation is it a priority to look at a stat? I thought they were making stats more straightforward with this expansion and not "well on this fight" and "on that fight" to the point that we need more gear consistently.

It is crit heavy (sacrificing mainly spirit).

But what is different about this from our current gearing trends? Spirit is a regen tool but at the same time, crit is going to give you higher throughput for less mana. Couple that with major HL usage and you are using the same amount of mana for larger hps. It just cuts DL almost completely out of your casting. On top of that and unlike mastery, with the amount of aoe healing needed for fights, it increases the effectiveness of your holy radiance.

Since the returns from haste and holy radiance have specific caps but crit doesn't, it's conceivable that raising your crit increases your effectiveness at aoe healing which makes up for the deficiency of the class rather than makes a strength stronger. For the record, I dealt with any tank damage that I wasn't able to easily keep up with with the only fights I didn't try on hard mode being cho'gall and nefarian, which are supposedly the only two with hard hitting bosses. I would call those the exception rather than the rule.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5020
07/05/2011 08:02 AMPosted by Fireflame
We should also add that all those kills were pre-nerf kills. I like how people are saying tank damage is predictable by watching videos, 'read' the fights and so on. Premonition is one of the guilds that actually does progression contents plus going for world / US first kills without any videos out there.

He's in a 25-man guild. It's far more important to avoid and understand mechanics than it is to maximize your personal DPS/HPS.

Am I saying he's bad? No, not at all. He's probably an excellent paladin. What I am saying is that he could get away with less optimal gearing and reforging and still get "world firsts".

Valiant effort Zaroua, for paladins actually experienced in heroic content, this post is wonderful advice. Unfortunately, not enough people are taking you seriously.

I am experienced in Heroic content. His advice is silly and isn't backed up with fact.

I will admit that I have never done a 25-man raid and cannot speak to the healing environment there. I can say that in 10-man Heroic content this advice is very, very bad and will get your raid killed.

And I can say, in a general sense, that HPS is a good metric of how much a healer contributed to a raid. It's not the only metric certainly and a kill is a kill, but there's a certain amount of damage going out on every encounter. It's our job to heal it which means on every encounter you have to put out a certain amount of HPS for everyone to survive. If one healer puts out less, it puts more of a burden on the others.

07/05/2011 02:34 AMPosted by Ez
His meta gem serves two purposes really, the 2% reduction was explained earlier, the 81 stam serves as minor survivability as well as extending the "absorb cap" if that point is ever reached, which is highly unlikely though for most encounters.

There is no defense of that meta gem. It is a silly choice and one that hurts his personal performance. Intellect is THE best stat for Holy Paladins. The survivability he'd get from intellect for his raid and for himself is far superior to a 2% reduction in damage and a bit of stamina.

Speaking of which, the stamina from that meta increases his IH cap by 27. You can't tell me that's going to make any difference when Tanks are rolling with 180k HP pools and taking 100k hits.

07/05/2011 02:34 AMPosted by Ez
People dismissing this post and calling a raider from one of the top tier progression guilds in the world while linking logs of throughput should just delete their posts. Whether or not your guild decides to use something like this is case by case. This can be a very strong single target healer and there are many fights where this could be viable (I've never tried it but have considered it since the change was announced!)

This is a classic argument from authority fallacy. Just because he's in a top guild doesn't mean that his gearing/reforging is optimal.

Until he can show math or present some kind of facts to support his argument I will dismiss him as someone who over gears (and out skills) normal modes to such an extent that he can get away with strange and sub-par gear builds and still succeed.

I am concerned only with maximizing my performance and giving my guild the most healing I possibly can. Stacking mastery is not how to do that.

Why not experiment?

That is my question to most of the people claiming one stat is better than another.

Because I have experienced how mastery works in 4.2, I have seen math on it, and I have tried it myself. All of this tells me that Haste is still superior and that Crit is much better than Mastery in HPS and HPM.

My current reforging/gemming is Intellect->Haste->Crit->Spirit->Mastery and from the (very simplistic) math I've done, my experience healing, and the math I've seen from others it seems to be the way to go to maximize throughput and efficiency.
Edited by Spiritscar on 7/5/2011 9:04 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
07/05/2011 08:55 AMPosted by Spiritscar
Because I have experienced how mastery works in 4.2, I have seen math on it, and I have tried it myself. All of this tells me that Haste is still superior and that Crit is much better than Mastery in HPS and HPM.


Hence you experimented!!!

I know i'm being techincal but you actually did it and felt it was crap then stuck to your guns.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6925
Thanks again for this, Zaroua. Ignore the trolls.

My main concern was on Baleroc. In your OP you suggest mastery for this fight, but from what I saw in our kill this week I would think that mastery would cap out too fast at 1/3rd our max health due to Vital Flame, making mastery less valuable for this encounter, despite the fact that it is a heavy tank dmg fight. I'll have to play around and see, as I was still using nearly all haste/spirit last week.
Edited by Ashleyriot on 7/6/2011 10:50 AM PDT
10 Human Rogue
0
We should also add that all those kills were pre-nerf kills. I like how people are saying tank damage is predictable by watching videos, 'read' the fights and so on. Premonition is one of the guilds that actually does progression contents plus going for world / US first kills without any videos out there.

He's in a 25-man guild. It's far more important to avoid and understand mechanics than it is to maximize your personal DPS/HPS.

Am I saying he's bad? No, not at all. He's probably an excellent paladin. What I am saying is that he could get away with less optimal gearing and reforging and still get "world firsts".

Valiant effort Zaroua, for paladins actually experienced in heroic content, this post is wonderful advice. Unfortunately, not enough people are taking you seriously.

I am experienced in Heroic content. His advice is silly and isn't backed up with fact.

I will admit that I have never done a 25-man raid and cannot speak to the healing environment there. I can say that in 10-man Heroic content this advice is very, very bad and will get your raid killed.

And I can say, in a general sense, that HPS is a good metric of how much a healer contributed to a raid. It's not the only metric certainly and a kill is a kill, but there's a certain amount of damage going out on every encounter. It's our job to heal it which means on every encounter you have to put out a certain amount of HPS for everyone to survive. If one healer puts out less, it puts more of a burden on the others.

07/05/2011 02:34 AMPosted by Ez
His meta gem serves two purposes really, the 2% reduction was explained earlier, the 81 stam serves as minor survivability as well as extending the "absorb cap" if that point is ever reached, which is highly unlikely though for most encounters.

There is no defense of that meta gem. It is a silly choice and one that hurts his personal performance. Intellect is THE best stat for Holy Paladins. The survivability he'd get from intellect for his raid and for himself is far superior to a 2% reduction in damage and a bit of stamina.

Speaking of which, the stamina from that meta increases his IH cap by 27. You can't tell me that's going to make any difference when Tanks are rolling with 180k HP pools and taking 100k hits.

07/05/2011 02:34 AMPosted by Ez
People dismissing this post and calling a raider from one of the top tier progression guilds in the world while linking logs of throughput should just delete their posts. Whether or not your guild decides to use something like this is case by case. This can be a very strong single target healer and there are many fights where this could be viable (I've never tried it but have considered it since the change was announced!)

This is a classic argument from authority fallacy. Just because he's in a top guild doesn't mean that his gearing/reforging is optimal.

Until he can show math or present some kind of facts to support his argument I will dismiss him as someone who over gears (and out skills) normal modes to such an extent that he can get away with strange and sub-par gear builds and still succeed.

I am concerned only with maximizing my performance and giving my guild the most healing I possibly can. Stacking mastery is not how to do that.


Maximizing your own performance and giving your guild the most healing you possibly can can be done not only in 1 way (sounded like raw HPS is what you are after).

His advice may seem silly (especially his meta gem) but his post was a reply to the PMs he got. This is also the first week of T12. So give it a week or two and check their logs, compare them to haste / spirit and/or crit / haste paladins'. Experimenting is what makes things livelier and more fun instead of the usual thing for most players: boss dead (world first?) > done > wait until next tier of content.
Edited by Fireflame on 7/5/2011 9:14 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6925
I will admit that I have never done a 25-man raid and cannot speak to the healing environment there. I can say that in 10-man Heroic content this advice is very, very bad and will get your raid killed.


Zaroua specifically said that this was for 25 man not for 10, read his post. Also, if you've NEVER done a 25man, do you really have the experience to comment? 25man healing is a completely different beast. There are far more specific assignments, while in 10 man each healer has a part in tank healing / raiding healing and has to cover for the other healers often. I would almost completely agree that I would stay haste/spirit for 10 man.


And I can say, in a general sense, that HPS is a good metric of how much a healer contributed to a raid. If one healer puts out less, it puts more of a burden on the others.


This goes back to the "let us bring 9 druids" argument. Yes, throughput is important, but it is not all important. Sure our druid had 25k hps on Rag, and I did about 14k. Am I less important? No, I was tank healing, and he was spamming Wild Growth on the melee. Did he provide 10% phys dmg reduction on the tanks? Nope our shaman did, who himself only did about 11k hps most attempts. He is certainly not less important than I. Healers are meant to work together as a team, playing off each other's strengths. Druids have throughput... that's it. Tranq alone is enough of a boost to put them on top most of the time.

Recount and world of logs are such valuable tools, but only if you look past the glory of being on top and figure out how the pieces fit together.
85 Dwarf Paladin
8820
Its hilarious to read scrub know-it-alls arguing against a healer that is in one of the top guilds in the World.
(And also one of the best theorycrafters I have seen for the last several years when it comes to the Holy Paladin class.)
Edited by Bubblejet on 7/5/2011 9:34 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
07/05/2011 09:32 AMPosted by Bubblejet
Its hilarious to read scrub know-it-alls arguing against a healer that is in one of the top guilds in the World.


Its hilarious when fanboys just salivate and agree with Zaroua because he is in a top rank guild. You have to take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt, you can't give exceptions because said player is in a top guild.

Albert Einstein said there was no such thing as possiblity and everything was planned. Obviously that is wrong because it is possible for anything to happen at a given time.

If Zaroua posted it in the forums then it is something he wanted it to be critically analysed. He didn't post it in the EJ forums.
Edited by Josémourinho on 7/5/2011 9:35 AM PDT
- World of Warcraft
85 Blood Elf Paladin
9225
What Zar is saying that in a 25 Man perspective, our roles are so cemented in as a tank healer that we might as well make use of it and excel at what really helps tank healing: Mitigation.

I can understand that, and I don't think that's really the issue.

The issue is that if he's right Blizzard would probably need to have a look at it. Completely changing from haste in favor of mastery doesn't fix the problem we've been having: We still don't have a balance in stats.

BTW, It's Fraudir. I'm Practical again, yay. Too many people couldn't pronounce "Fraud-eer."
10 Human Rogue
0
I'd guess Fraudir was pronounced "Fraud-uhr" somehow?
- World of Warcraft
85 Blood Elf Paladin
9225
07/05/2011 09:37 AMPosted by Fireflame
I'd guess Fraudir was pronounced "Fraud-uhr" somehow?

The way it's supposed to be pronounced is "Fraud-ear."

People pronounced it "Fro-deer," "Frah-dee," just ridiculous names. Everyone on the forums/my server knows me as Practical, but I kept my name change from transferring off the server...

Now that I'm back, I figured that I didn't want to hurt the overall IQ of the server or people on the forums because they were like "WHO ARE Y- OH HI PRACTICAL LUL"
Edited by Practical on 7/5/2011 9:43 AM PDT
85 Dwarf Paladin
8820
As Zaroua said, this is a very specific set of gear/ playstyle going for a very specific result.

To say that stacking Int/ Haste is the ONLY way to play a Holy Paladin is a bit narrow-minded imo.

Not being a "fanboy" here.
If a player in one of the top guilds says that this is an effective way to be a tank healer, and can provide the logs to back it up etc, then I am inclined to believe him.

I am also interested in finding out how mana was on the fights where this was used, as Spirit seems to be very low.
How many times were Divine Plea cast, was Judgement used on Cooldown (I assume) etc?

Also I apologize if my previous post derailed the topic or angered anyone.
Was not my intent.
Edited by Bubblejet on 7/5/2011 9:52 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5020
07/05/2011 09:25 AMPosted by Ashleyriot
Zaroua specifically said that this was for 25 man not for 10, read his post.

It didn't originally say that and I foolishly assumed it was talking about 10 man. It's human nature I suppose to assume that your situation is average/ideal (or maybe I'm just a terrible person).

I have no problem with him stating his opinion, I just have a problem with him (and others) talking as if everyone should know who he is and instantly drop whatever you're doing and accept his word as law. Maybe I got the wrong impression and if so I apologize. I'm a antisocial loner, I can't help but take some things the wrong way.

07/05/2011 09:25 AMPosted by Ashleyriot
Recount and world of logs are such valuable tools, but only if you look past the glory of being on top and figure out how the pieces fit together.

I completely agree. Our Shaman is almost always our lowest HPS yet the one night we raided without him we definitely felt his absence.

I was speaking in a very general sense that more HPS means more help for the raid. If a Paladin brings his CDs and fulfills his job he's valuable and useful. But couldn't he be more useful if he brought his CDs and fulfilled his job AND maximized his HPS? That's what I was trying to say.

To say that stacking Int/ Haste is the ONLY way to play a Holy Paladin is nonsense.

I can get down with not stacking haste in certain situations. But not stacking intellect? It's just such a powerful stat that helps every aspect of healing; I'm not sure I can swallow that.
Edited by Spiritscar on 7/5/2011 9:51 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
Not being a "fanboy" here.
If a player in one of the top guilds says that this is an effective way to be a tank healer, and can provide the logs to back it up etc, then I am inclined to believe him.


He hasn't provided any logs to back him up. That is the point, i think he put it in public to get more insight on what others think about it etc.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11325
07/05/2011 09:33 AMPosted by Josémourinho
Its hilarious to read scrub know-it-alls arguing against a healer that is in one of the top guilds in the World.


Its hilarious when fanboys just salivate and agree with Zaroua because he is in a top rank guild. You have to take everyone's opinion with a grain of salt, you can't give exceptions because said player is in a top guild.

Albert Einstein said there was no such thing as possiblity and everything was planned. Obviously that is wrong because it is possible for anything to happen at a given time.

If Zaroua posted it in the forums then it is something he wanted it to be critically analysed. He didn't post it in the EJ forums.


Indeed. You always need to take advice, gearing decisions, etc from players in top end guilds with a grain of salt. Not because they don't know what they're talking about, but because their raiding experience is probably very different than what most players will face.

Someone in a top end guild will not have to worry about carrying a 7K hps healer, or run with 12-14K dpsers, or have people who constantly miss interrupts and stand in the fire, or tanks who don't use cooldowns effectively. The rest of us do face these things. That's why it is important to understand WHY they make the choices they did and how that may apply to you, and NOT just simply try to mimic them because they are further progressed.
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