Holy Paladin: Mastery

85 Draenei Paladin
7655
07/04/2011 09:42 PMPosted by Rabel
I highly doubt Sinestra world firsts would have been done as quickly without Haste making that high output possible.


Haste is worthless on Sinestra as you get a massive haste buff that puts Divine Light at the GCD anyway. Why would you ever need haste for that fight?
85 Dwarf Paladin
6850
07/05/2011 12:39 PMPosted by Aani
Haste is worthless on Sinestra as you get a massive haste buff that puts Divine Light at the GCD anyway. Why would you ever need haste for that fight?
I've never done Sinestra... nor do I expect my guild will until we've geared up well past it in Firelands. :|

So what I said shows my inexperience. Derp. Whatever, the Haste is the source of the high HPS levels.
85 Human Paladin
12220
07/05/2011 12:39 PMPosted by Aani
I highly doubt Sinestra world firsts would have been done as quickly without Haste making that high output possible.


Haste is worthless on Sinestra as you get a massive haste buff that puts Divine Light at the GCD anyway. Why would you ever need haste for that fight?


It still benefits Holy Radiance while Essence of the Red is up, and there's also a potentially long period of time after Essence of the Red fades where you'll need a fair amount of haste to keep people alive.
85 Human Paladin
8805
People always seem to forget the best thing haste has to offer. The ability to save lives. If someone takes a large hit and is about to take another one and you don't have any HP available, a 1.11 second flash of light is much more likely to save someone than a 1.32 second flash of light. 0.21 seconds has meant the difference between a death and a close call many times.

More haste also means HR becomes more efficient, you can get more mastery shields up, and you can use more holy lights which saves mana.


Like Ggx said, haste becomes really important after EotR ends. While it's true EotR devalues haste on that fight greatly, it also devalues ALL of your gear stats so it doesn't really matter what you're using. Your gear choice only really matters after EotR falls off at which point it becomes very important.
85 Dwarf Paladin
6850
07/05/2011 02:16 PMPosted by Cruisecho
People always seem to forget the best thing haste has to offer. The ability to save lives. If someone takes a large hit and is about to take another one and you don't have any HP available, a 1.11 second flash of light is much more likely to save someone than a 1.32 second flash of light. 0.21 seconds has meant the difference between a death and a close call many times.
Considering the number of sources that instant save can come from is at least 5-6 in 25 player raids, I'd say you want your Holy Shock or 1-2 Holy Power WoG to hit as hard as possible and provide the largest healing / shielding total possible - and the only guaranteed way to do that is through Mastery. :D

If you're solely responsible for saving your tank, Mastery is superior. If you're on raid heals, you're doing the toughest job your class can attempt - why not swap that Shaman off the tanks and onto raid while you hit those tanks up? :D
Edited by Rabel on 7/5/2011 3:46 PM PDT
10 Human Rogue
0
What I am curious now is that wouldn't gemming all mastery (ignoring int) actually decrease the amount of absorb per shield?

Edit: absorb per cast I suppose I should say
Edited by Fireflame on 7/5/2011 8:46 PM PDT
85 Human Paladin
10965
What's the cap for our mastery? Or the whereabouts, if you take into account crit heals and the 1/3 our health cap.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
7395
If you're geared correctly the only mastery you'll have will come from wearing plate, in my opinion.
90 Draenei Paladin
20430
Meh, I heavily prefer the support dual tank healing / AoE role I've taken on.

I think the moral of this thread is that you can do anything with your stats now as a holy paladin and it will work due to how close everything is and how our mechanics currently function.

Although I am really baffled about not gemming intellect. Higher intellect increases your shield absorbtion by strongly competitive rates given the other benefits of int. (Crit heals = larger mastery shields, stronger heals = larger mastery heals, etc.)

And maybe tank healing will change once I hit heroic Ragnaros, but for now, tank hp is relatively stable and does not warrant the buffering effect of mastery shields. Downed heroic Shannox and am reasonably close to downing heroic spider boss after our first four hour foray - paladins definitely destroy any other healer on overall hps across two tank targets, and on single tank targets there is no way that any paladin - even a paladin with 35% absorbs on every heal - can keep up with a shaman tank healer.

Provide huge buffering hps to two tanks or decent buffering hp to tank + raid (mostly through WoG, the only exceptional paladin raid heal), let the real tank healers (shaman) keep tanks alive and the real raid healers (druid/disc) keep raids alive. Profit! Maybe.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/kaikulu/shannoxhps.jpg
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/kaikulu/shannonxhealbreakdown.jpg
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/kaikulu/shannonxtank1.jpg
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h314/kaikulu/shannonxtank2.jpg

I was also wearing Cloak of Coordination for the kill. /slaps self

P.S.: Zaroua, I'd love to see some mastery logs!

Edit: I was gearing crit-->haste-->spirit-->mastery at the time of this post. I'm giving mastery-->crit-->spirit-->haste a try now, but still going after a two-tank support healing role.
Edited by Eloderung on 7/7/2011 10:35 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6925
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/9cb2lwet3qc74a3b/details/9/?s=3389&e=3799#tab-healspell

Here is a WoL link to my healing done on our Shannox kill tonight.

Mastery: 1147
Haste: 969
Crit: 683

I have been reforging haste/spirit before this week, having 1800 haste / 200ish mastery before reforging and switching out a few pieces.

I would love to ditch a bit of that Crit for mastery, and possibly drop haste down to 774, the first Holy Radiance plateau.

My role was keeping up the Shannox tank with my beacon on him, usually just direct ToR healing him while spot healing raid members that had the debuff.

Last week when we killed him I beaconed the Shannox tank, and was assigned to healing the debuffed target, while our shaman tank healed. We thought this week went smoother. Your mileage may vary :D

While a mastery build worked well for me on this fight, On Alysrazor I felt myself wanting to go back to my haste, and changed a few pieces accordingly. On that fight, my dual tank healing is needed, as our other main holy pally was absent tonight. There's also considerable aoe dmg, so haste seemed preferred. Please give me your thoughts!
Edited by Ashleyriot on 7/5/2011 11:59 PM PDT
85 Dwarf Paladin
6850
07/05/2011 05:16 PMPosted by Fireflame
What I am curious now is that wouldn't gemming all mastery (ignoring int) actually decrease the amount of absorb per shield?
Actually, no it would not. The fastest way to boost shielding is through the Mastery stat. Your overall healing output will drop when losing Int, I believe, but you would gain a fair amount of shielding. If, as is the case with Zaroua, you are focused on making use of that shielding as a tank healer... that might be ok. For someone attempting multiple roles you want more versatility - Int is by far the best stat for that, followed by varying levels of Spirit, Haste, Crit, and Mastery (in no particular order).

07/05/2011 07:57 PMPosted by Stosys
What's the cap for our mastery? Or the whereabouts, if you take into account crit heals and the 1/3 our health cap.
This is very tough to nail down. I can tell you right now that the "cap" will be not just soft, but VERY soft. Its going to depreciate pretty significantly around T13 Heroics or (assuming we have it this expansion) T14 normals. I'm not adept at the gear ilvl math, I am sure someone with experience with that could do this stuff pretty accurately...

But lets say you have 50% IH (about 5965 rating). Thats roughly twice the rating people are getting in T11 Heroic gear, maybe with a mix of T11H and T12N. At 50% you need a mere 95k healing to cap it at current stam levels (T11H/T12N mix), or at a more modest percentage (35%, or ~2750 rating) ~135k healing, which is doable in about 3-4 DL/WoG hits. In T14 our health will probably be where tanks health pools are right now, so 175-190k maybe. That puts our cap at ~60k-63k. To hit 63k shielding you'd need ~125k healing. I don't know how hard our heals will hit at that point but my guess is a Crit + an instant would cap it out immediately, or a pair of non-Crit DL/WoG + another instant.

Again, all just guesswork... nothing concrete there at all. It might start to be slightly less effective but I don't think it will take a massive hit until that point (where you're almost capping it in 1-2 GCD, or what you can get off in between 2 second mob swings).

It will lose all value the moment you can cap it in one cast, of course, and that is the hard cap (technically still soft since you have spells that hit for less you can use, but what is the point in that?).

In any case, the answer to this "problem" happening is put some points into Haste and Crit, or gem Int instead, or any of multiple other solutions (good lord, stacking stamina...)

07/05/2011 10:20 PMPosted by Imrik
If you're geared correctly the only mastery you'll have will come from wearing plate, in my opinion.
We get 5% Int from wearing plate. Did you mean from set pieces worn purely for set bonuses? Purely from what is left over after reforging out of it? :D
85 Dwarf Paladin
6850
07/05/2011 11:38 PMPosted by Eloderung
I think the moral of this thread is that you can do anything with your stats now as a holy paladin and it will work due to how close everything is and how our mechanics currently function.
Good GOD. Did you just say that? Guys, he just said that.

What the F is with all the S you gave me over it? *angry*

07/05/2011 11:38 PMPosted by Eloderung
on single tank targets there is no way that any paladin - even a paladin with 35% absorbs on every heal - can keep up with a shaman tank healer.
Agreed, but Shaman don't reduce the "insta-gib" effect of burst damage, only compensate for it through their Mastery effect. While I know you certainly have much more firsthand experience with this in Firelands right now (to which if you require I will literally bow my head and concede), I think it is worth noting that said Shaman will have an easier time healing the target, if lower HPS, when there is an Illuminator healing that target with him. :D

07/05/2011 11:38 PMPosted by Eloderung
Provide huge buffering hps to two tanks or decent buffering hp to tank + raid (mostly through WoG, the only exceptional paladin raid heal), let the real tank healers (shaman) keep tanks alive and the real raid healers (druid/disc) keep raids alive. Profit! Maybe.
So you're saying Haste acts like a multi-tank "uber HoT" effect, frequent periodic heals for significant amounts, while the other classes have the real jobs of healing actual damage intake, and actual raid damage. We provide a periodic healing buffer effect...

Crap... it sounds like we have to decide between "uber HoT" and "shield buffer"... how bummer is that? If it really is that way (and I know its not entirely, with either method of healing) I think our mechanics are the cause and not the stats.

---
Edit: By the way, Elo. That was the nicest post I've seen you make in relation to Mastery, the sheer surprise of it stuns me... can I say thank you? It doesn't matter if you meant to make me feel good, it did. I know its due to the 4.2 changes anyway, but what I wanted before was for the stats to all be considered valid, and to see you consider that possible is a "win" to me (not in the sense I beat you, but in the sense that its what I wanted). <3
Edited by Rabel on 7/6/2011 12:12 AM PDT
85 Dwarf Paladin
6850
I'm not Zaroua, but here is a log of a 25 man ((normal Lord Rhyolith wipefest)) with a mastery stacked holy paladin.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/15jszzq7nf735n6p/sum/healingDone/?enc=bosses&boss=52558

Shameful, I know. We do what we can. :D
Edited by Rabel on 7/6/2011 12:24 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6795
07/05/2011 11:38 PMPosted by Eloderung
I think the moral of this thread is that you can do anything with your stats now as a holy paladin and it will work due to how close everything is and how our mechanics currently function.

I disagree, unless you sufficiently dilute the definition of "work." But our stats certainly still aren't close in relative value by any reasonable measure compared to those of the other healing specs.

07/06/2011 12:08 AMPosted by Rabel
What the F is with all the S you gave me over it? *angry*

Because you've been saying the exact same thing about the stat for seven months, regardless of its value on its own merits. If you all of a sudden wriggled out of the woodwork this patch and and suggested that mastery could be used for some specific role, nobody would be mocking you. But you've had the same (loud) opinion of Illuminated Healing for its entire existence, which is completely irrational. You deserve all the derision you've earned.

Agreed, but Shaman don't reduce the "insta-gib" effect of burst damage, only compensate for it through their Mastery effect. While I know you certainly have much more firsthand experience with this in Firelands right now (to which if you require I will literally bow my head and concede), I think it is worth noting that said Shaman will have an easier time healing the target, if lower HPS, when there is an Illuminator healing that target with him. :D

Shaman have AF, ES, Riptide and ELW all reducing the impact of burst damage. As for "having an easier time" healing a target with a dedicated paladin, no kidding Sherlock. If you take one healer slot and completely dedicate it to one person, everybody else will have an easy-ass time healing that person.

Edit: By the way, Elo. That was the nicest post I've seen you make in relation to Mastery, the sheer surprise of it stuns me... can I say thank you? It doesn't matter if you meant to make me feel good, it did. I know its due to the 4.2 changes anyway, but what I wanted before was for the stats to all be considered valid, and to see you consider that possible is a "win" to me (not in the sense I beat you, but in the sense that its what I wanted). <3

Wearing utter crap, pretending it's not utter crap, and waiting half a year to be buffed into anything even remotely resembling relevance in one minute aspect of healing is a pretty pathetic way to go about "winning."
Edited by Anohako on 7/6/2011 1:02 AM PDT
85 Night Elf Druid
6590
07/04/2011 03:59 PMPosted by Atrahasis
I still see no reason to nerf your thoroughput to perform a roll thats already being done by other classes.

Haven't finished reading but from what I've seen so far, the guy's trying to say if you focus on being a solo tank healer as a paladin, mastery is an extremely beneficial stat. Second to intellect, I believe is what he's saying.
But if you decide to go this route, you lose throughput. And you are arguing with him over that for some reason I'm not sure.
Either way, any healer that has to focus tank healing will lose throughput, that's a given. Because unless you can spam 20k heals every second, you're not going to do as much as you would on a raid where you can PoH a group for 6k a person. It's just... A different job. Less HPS doesnt = a bad healer.
07/06/2011 12:17 AMPosted by Matuzak
P.S.: Zaroua, I'd love to see some mastery logs!


I'm not Zaroua, but here is a log of a 25 man heroic Shannox kill with a mastery stacked holy paladin.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-un9kxhh2jkdadz22/analyze/hd/source/?s=14835&e=15211


Nice logs, did you try out gemming all int and int/mast gems by chance? If so how did that work out?
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14560
07/05/2011 11:59 PMPosted by Rabel
What I am curious now is that wouldn't gemming all mastery (ignoring int) actually decrease the amount of absorb per shield?


Actually, no it would not. The fastest way to boost shielding is through the Mastery stat. Your overall healing output will drop when losing Int, I believe, but you would gain a fair amount of shielding. If, as is the case with Zaroua, you are focused on making use of that shielding as a tank healer... that might be ok. For someone attempting multiple roles you want more versatility - Int is by far the best stat for that, followed by varying levels of Spirit, Haste, Crit, and Mastery (in no particular order).


I believe no matter how much mastery you stack its still a percent of the total heal. This is directly effected by the amount of int we have. Thus stacking mastery gets you a "bigger" shield for the moment, it does not give you a bigger overall shield.

Also, Im curious on you mana constraints, your logs show you at roughly 30% over heal and only JoTP at 50% up time.

Another question I have, is about your shields, comparing logs with my own I find your avg. IL shield is barely 500 more absorption than mine, while you have 10% less haste and 7 points more of mastery.

To draw a simple conclusion from this, one would surmise, my faster heals allow me to stack my shield more quickly than your slower ones making them still competitive.
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