Holy Paladin: Mastery

85 Dwarf Paladin
0


Bottom line for me: It's effective for tank healing, but not very interesting to play.


So using a haste build or using BoL and healing others changes this how? It is a question, not being argumentative.
85 Human Paladin
4785
I just don't see how stacking mastery would be viable. I was just doing FL trash the other night and if my casts were any slower tanks would've fell over dead.

Maybe if you stack mastery, heal your beacon target and spam HS on them as well... But that would leave you a gimped 1 man healer.

I think having a healthy mix of both crit and mastery (maybe even a little more crit) will be more ideal and viable for any situation. int > spirit >haste >crit >= mastery will still be my priority.

85 Dwarf Paladin
5175
Good luck stacking mastery in 10 man heroics. That would never fly unless you were glued to the tank, which we know in 10s is almost impossible. There are only a small set of times that would actually work.
85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
So using a haste build or using BoL and healing others changes this how? It is a question, not being argumentative.
To be honest, it doesn't much, but you do get to dynamically change your spell selection a bit more and it can be more challenging to play.

I somewhat compare it to playing an Assassination Rogue vs a Subtlety Rogue, they're both very potent DPS, but one is much more difficult to play and so nobody plays it. Obviously a Haste build for us isn't on the same level as a completely different spec, nor is it as difficult as Subtlety (trust me, I know, I have a Sub Rogue).

But Haste even has a higher maximum HPS ceiling than Mastery, much like Sub has a statistical higher DPS output but few encounters allow it and few players can perform it. Haste simply has the opposite going for it, it is more versatile than Mastery and thus the more likely choice for a balanced gear set.

Again, though, why should we gear for just one? I'm considering dropping some Mastery for Haste and a bit more Crit. I'd like to see if it helps my healing overall to have a mix. :D
100 Blood Elf Paladin
14735
His JotP had 99.1% uptime. I'm assuming you're referring to the amount of times he judged vs the amount of possible judges, but if that's the case, most paladins run between 50-75% efficiency there. And your "simple conclusion" is just a simple conclusion. If he's stacking mastery his shields will hit significantly harder than yours. When I switched to a mastery set to try this out my shields gained a 78% increase. You can't possibly put out the same level of shields on a haste set.


You seemed to be misunderstanding about the logs I am talking about. I was interested in Rabel's posted log. As his gear was closer in line to mine and therefore a slightly better comparison model.

07/06/2011 09:39 AMPosted by Highcommand
There is the argument that "Well you shouldn't ever be overhealing, or you are an idiot." And I say poo. You're gonna overheal. Everyone overheals, especially when they don't know the other people healing. We aren't mind readers, nor are we perfect.


It is more mana efficient to not be over-healing and it is possible to be a "mind reader" per se, as almost all the healing frame add-ons can be set up to indicate when a heal is incoming onto a target.

Now talking about this giant glob about haste, is something few people seem to realize, but is ever an increasing problem now that our mana has been nerfed. Yes, haste increases our output, but it does not increase our healing overall.


Not to be too nit picky, but Haste does increase our HR tics, which in turn gets more healing for the same cost of mana.

I am not trying to personally attack anyone, I am just trying to find a way to better understand our secondary stats.

At the end of the day the tank(s) either lived and the boss died. There can only be one atop the charts for dps and heals. Only one. Who is to say the person stacking one stat over the other didn't do their part?


While I agree that "topping" the charts is the wrong way to look at the information; I do feel, that watching the overall output of all the healers is important. Taken in context it shouldn't be too hard to see who did what in a fight and if that person could have done a better job at their role.
"i.e: Did the Haste stacked paladin go OOM too fast and did the Druid raid healing have to keep HoTs on the tank? Or vice versa?"

Understanding how efficient Mastery is compared to Crit, Haste, Spirit, is essential to us as healers. The better min/max'd we are, the less stressful/struggling our raid time will be. ;D
10 Human Rogue
0
Has anybody tried this kind of build / playstyle in 10m environment yet? Some players disagree with this playstyle for 10m but I guess until there is a more concrete result we can't be 100% sure just yet.

85 Dwarf Paladin
0

While I agree that "topping" the charts is the wrong way to look at the information; I do feel, that watching the overall output of all the healers is important. Taken in context it shouldn't be too hard to see who did what in a fight and if that person could have done a better job at their role.
"i.e: Did the Haste stacked paladin go OOM too fast and did the Druid raid healing have to keep HoTs on the tank? Or vice versa?"

Understanding how efficient Mastery is compared to Crit, Haste, Spirit, is essential to us as healers. The better min/max'd we are, the less stressful/struggling our raid time will be. ;D


Valid point. It is a way to see who is doing what and when. It does help progression, fine tune, etc. I actually agree. However, I'd also argue that 98% of the time the charts are not viewed that way. Of course I do hold the right to be incorrect, but I'm sure we both can agree that most times meters are nothing more than a epeen constest rather than being used as you pointed out.

Since raiding in Cata I have to say that it is of my opinion that Paladins are playing a mini-game in of itself. How to manage our mana is what I do more often than not. Sure, there are times whereas I can shine but it seems more often than not I'm controlling what I do vs. that of going HL/FL bomb nutz of months past. Right or wrong more complex to play or not - I really don't know.

I personally haven't found something that made me get excited about healing or get past the mana management part yet. And that is taking a bit of the fun out for me. Crit didn't do it. Haste didn't do it. I'm still searching and sure I will come across it here in a bit shortly.
85 Draenei Paladin
7655
07/06/2011 01:17 PMPosted by Fireflame
Has anybody tried this kind of build / playstyle in 10m environment yet? Some players disagree with this playstyle for 10m but I guess until there is a more concrete result we can't be 100% sure just yet.


You need to be way more flexible in 10 mans. A focused tank healer just isn't needed there.
85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
07/06/2011 02:06 PMPosted by Atrahasis
I'm curious how spamming one target with largely one spell is more challenging to play?
Since we're talking about Haste here, you have to balance your healing with Holy Light and Divine Light much more.

Mastery and Crit provide efficiency gains (naturally all increases to their output comes at no added cost). Haste on the other hand does not increase your output per mana, only per time, aka- HPS. Because of this Haste stacked players will want to maximize their efficient casting via spell selection.

What I am talking about is the efficiency gains of Holy Light of course, but the key here is that Haste MUST use this method in order to create the longevity needed to match the two more efficient stats. The only efficiency Haste gains is through spell selection, thus the efficiency is lost if you make poor spell selection.

That is why Haste is tougher to play. Its like driving a car at a higher speed - if you turn the wheel the same as if you were at a lower speed you risk spinning out. You have to be more subtle, you can still turn the wheel that hard but it needs to be done VERY carefully. Lucky for you you are going fast so you might just win the race - if you don't spin out.

Note: I'm ignoring Holy Radiance in this, we already know HR gains by far the most from Haste plateaus, but again, that is at a plateau and only happens so often. The concept of which stat becomes a priority after a plateau is what is in question. :D
Edited by Rabel on 7/6/2011 3:56 PM PDT
85 Dwarf Paladin
0
We sort of had this debate before during WoTLK expansion whereas many / most / 99.9% said HL and int was the only way and a few would try and argue for FL.

Maybe that is why I'm not atop the charts this expansion because the 4.x Paladin is different than every other expansion pack. And I've been healing raids since pre-retail open beta(I should clarify and say healing to include original l/ubrs, mc, bwl, etc). I mean, spell selection isn't difficult nor is managing mana or stopping ones cast. But at the end of the day I always end up being a tank healer. Although I think I haven't stacked haste yet to meet a haste build I think.

So how is one measuring mastery then? Does recount or skada show it?
Edited by Skeleg on 7/6/2011 4:57 PM PDT
85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
07/06/2011 04:15 PMPosted by Atrahasis
Given that I'm not sure why one would want to hinder oneselfs in this regard.
Unfortunately one tends to find that until a fight is executed properly (as in a method that is typical of success, one can indeed find limited success with weird strategies sometimes) one will generally fail regardless of bad luck. Once you're executing properly deaths like the one you describe should be minimal.

You're talking about trying to cover for screwups, and the fact is we're trying to cover for RNG and difficulties in fight mechanics that persist regardless of proper execution or not.

So if you have to choose, which do you choose? Smoother kill when there are no screwups, or smoothing over of screwups but a slightly more difficult "clean" attempt?

Both equally valid choices. I don't see where choosing one or the other is better - its really all opinion.

Note: I get that sometimes RNG swings the other way and favors the Haste side, in which case the choice is the opposite: do you make the RNG easier to handle through Haste, or do you make the screwups easier to handle through spell selection (FoL for example is more efficient with Mastery or Crit). Actually, this kinda makes me lean toward Haste being the better stat, again because it is simply more versatile.

So how is one measuring mastery then? Does recount or skada show it?
Both should show it now, and WoL seems to have ironed out all of its kinks relating to shielding effects.
Edited by Rabel on 7/6/2011 5:20 PM PDT
85 Dwarf Paladin
0
Mastery question(s) then.

1. Do you frontload several heals before pull to build the max bubble size?
2. After encounter starts, then bubble gets removed if hit takes it all, correct?
3. At that point then does it matter at all due to size and incoming damage rate?

In other words the tank is taking damage and bubbles/shields get removed. Upon next heal a new mastery shield would get added. So the question then is the new shield size worthy of the mastery stat focus.

I mean yes, I can cast and see illuminated healing shields up to 40k. But after that is gone the next one is only 8k...
90 Human Paladin
10460
07/06/2011 08:44 PMPosted by Marathel
So like how are you people making mastery effective in regards that you have to stack it. Not only that isn't the fact that its restrained to 1/3 of your total health anyway? So if you have more mastery all your really doing is stacking the shield faster to its limit?


If shields are getting stacked that quickly either means that the tank isn't taking damage or they had the most amazing avoidance streak in the history of Warcraft combined with some awesome crit rolls on your part. My 135k raid buffed health pool means my IH maxes out at 45k shields. Even assuming I get Zaroua's ~35% (and it's worth remembering that he's running full Mastery gems and enchants, along with trinket and such) absorbs on my 28k DL's, it would take 5 casts to reach my maximum.

For all intents and purposes the cap on Mastery is a non-issue at current levels. MAYBE in a full heroic mastery set you could start ramming the cap when you factor in crits, but I don't see it as a huge issue yet.
Edited by Dazanna on 7/6/2011 9:02 PM PDT
85 Human Paladin
7395
Maybe on page 8 some of the earlier stipulations were missed by some. This method of tank only healing works if:

1. You raid 25s
2. You're healing team is flexible and has stout raid healers
3. You beacon the tank you're healing
4. You only heal your tank target
5. You have high mastery, at least 25%

If you can meet all of the above conditions, this could work for you. Critical divine lights easily put up a 10-15k shield on the tank. With tower generating holy power and glyphs/talents to buff WoG, this method allows one to maintain that 10k-ish absorb a lot of the time. That doesn't mean you're trying to build the shield, although if you get some lucky avoidance/crits/procs you can. It means that the majority of your heals also put a 10k absorb up on the tank. That's pretty cool. Cast HR on cd if you want, or when it's helpful.

100 Blood Elf Paladin
14735

Mastery question(s) then.

1. Do you frontload several heals before pull to build the max bubble size?
2. After encounter starts, then bubble gets removed if hit takes it all, correct?
3. At that point then does it matter at all due to size and incoming damage rate?



1. As much as I can, usually I try to start the fight off with a full charge of HP and the 40k shield. (It is Sooooo depressing when the tank walks into Magma right before Rhyolith and burns it away.)

2. When the absorb from the shield is used then yes, it is removed.

3. This is my biggest problem with mastery and wrapping my head around its viability. Obviously more mastery makes a bigger shield, however your haste suffers when gemming/reforging in this direction that its doubtful you get more than 1-2 heals off. (Obviously not counting Daybreak procs and such.)
Now, with haste stack, you end up with a smaller shield on hit one, however, your heals are coming quicker and therefore stack much more rapidly. (This is where I wonder on the balancing of the two stats comes in.)

You could almost argue that this buff to IL was actually a greater push for haste, therefore allowing you to stack a big bubble in a short amount of time. :O
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