Call to Arms: Alterac Valley Classic

90 Blood Elf Warlock
4375
Didn't notice this thread, Foury, see my thread of suggestions.

Also we could use the seemingly useless War Games feature to "recreate" old AV.
85 Human Mage
0
07/07/2011 03:05 AMPosted by Blâderunner
foury needs a nobel peace prize


Considering that I'm trying to start more fights here, I'm not sure that would be appropriate. Though I could certainly use the cash right now, as my "WoW money" is in danger of being reallocated to the "groceries" fund.

I disagree with #1. Todays Map creates a tremendous amount of PvP.


This is definitely a subjective thing, but I think we agree that AV is in need of some lovin'.
85 Tauren Shaman
5165
Signed.

Also I'd like to point out that Horde players always say Alliance has it easier and that Horde sucks, and on the other hand, Alliance players always say Horde has it easier and that Alliance sucks. I'm not going to say everything is perfectly balanced, but every game is situational. Every game has a different outcome that has a hundred factors, it's not Alliance and it's not Horde, it's way bigger than that.

GO GO OLD AV
100 Night Elf Druid
3200
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Bring back Palterac!
85 Human Priest
2150
I remember back on Vanilla wow when I played on EU servers I entered an AV I went to bed, work, had dinner and came back and came back to the same BG :p timer 27hrs + lol
85 Gnome Rogue
3675
+rep

started playing back in bc, missed the glory days though my guildies all talk about them still. i would love to see it come back!
70 Blood Elf Paladin
3465
/signed
90 Blood Elf Warlock
4375
This is what I am thinking Foury:

-Rework the honor system to be separate of reinforcements.

-Either remove the reinforcement system, or make it harder to lose reinforcements.

-When the other team's towers are destroyed, ALL NPCS, not just Vann/Drek, should get a reduction in power.

-Increase defending NPCs power by A LOT. Make it sure that it would actually take the whole team to down all the towers before even attempting to go to Drek/Vann.

-Controlling a Bunker should increase the number of troops and health of the troops that defend gys/towers/other bunkers.

-The the gy closest to Frostwolf Keep and Stormpike Keep should not be capturable by the enemy.

-Mines should give back a bit more reinforcements.

-Defending certain points, like AB, should give you increased honor.

-Give honor for turning in scraps/blood/meat/medals.

-Give honor for summon Lok, the Cavalry, and upgrading the troops.

-Add Dailies similar to Tol Barad

-Every 45min or so there should be a pop up box whether you can choose to continue to fight (if the game is not over) or leave without penalty. No matter what you chose you still get the honor reward.
I'd rather just have my old AV back, as it was. But again, they should remove honor gains from it. This will ensure the people who want to play it, will play it for the sake of the game.

Those who want a 25 minute rush to get as much honor as they can, well, they can go find some other BG, where you get farmed in the GY.
85 Troll Rogue
13250
It's good to see people posting suggestions. This seems like a great time/place to discuss what could be done to improve AV. Quoting Gilaras:

-Rework the honor system to be separate of reinforcements.

-Either remove the reinforcement system, or make it harder to lose reinforcements.

-Mines should give back a bit more reinforcements.

The need for reinforcements has come and gone in my mind. Recall that when TBC hit, pvp gear required specific BG marks (which were rewarded at the end of a game: 3 for winning, 1 for losing, regardless of time spent or honor accrued). This meant that to gear up you had to run AV whether you liked it or not. Being that AV (without reinforcements) usually took longer than WSG, AB, or EotS complaints arose. Adding in reinforcements was a band-aid fix to address that problem. If AV is removed from the random BG rotation, then I don't see why reinforcements are needed, although I would also accept a modification to the system where reinforcements are harder to lose and easier to gain back via the mines.

-When the other team's towers are destroyed, ALL NPCS, not just Vann/Drek, should get a reduction in power.

-Increase defending NPCs power by A LOT. Make it sure that it would actually take the whole team to down all the towers before even attempting to go to Drek/Vann.

-Controlling a Bunker should increase the number of troops and health of the troops that defend gys/towers/other bunkers.

I'm sure I'll be stepping on toes here, but I think a zerg of the opposing team's general should be incredibly difficult to pull off. I don't want to say Blizzard should make it impossible, as I like having different ways to win a BG as immense as AV. However, if you want to zerg down the general with all Marshals/Warmasters still up, you should have to commit your entire team to the effort. The tank damage should be high, the "raid" damage should be high (to borrow a PvE term) and the healers' job should be diffcult.

I also don't think it would be a bad idea for the elite NPCs to return to the towers (they were removed late in TBC). I'm not sure that all the NPCs from AV 1.0 need to come back, but some would be welcome imo.

-The the gy closest to Frostwolf Keep and Stormpike Keep should not be capturable by the enemy.

Debatable point. I don't think this is needed, but I wouldn't oppose it either.

-Defending certain points, like AB, should give you increased honor.

-Give honor for turning in scraps/blood/meat/medals.

-Give honor for summon Lok, the Cavalry, and upgrading the troops.

I've said this earlier in the thread. Honor rewards are a tricky thing. Yes you want to be rewarded for your efforts, but if you over- or under-tune the honor for an objective you may well be influencing whether or not that objective is considered "worthy" by the masses. In my idealized mind, you play AV to win by whichever method is best suited for the team you are fighting. No two oppositions will be the same, so each AV can and should be played a bit differently. Maybe have a lump sum of honor for winning (and little to none for losing) so that winning is what is emphasized, not necessarily the method. But then you have to consider whether you should be rewarded more for a 2hr win via summoning elite units or a 15min win via a strong offensive push to the general. I don't know what the answer is to this.

-Every 45min or so there should be a pop up box whether you can choose to continue to fight (if the game is not over) or leave without penalty. No matter what you chose you still get the honor reward.

Excellent idea. Gives people who might realize after joining that they don't have the time to finish a way out. I'd offer the chance every 30min myself.

Anyway, just my 3 cents (because I think what I've offered is worth more than 2 cents). Bottom line is that AV in its current condition is a mess. Do you know anyone who enjoys the current playstyle (other than the honor/hour accrued during holiday weekends)? In my guild, people either could never stand it or miss how it used to be. No one likes the current implementation. What could hurt returning it to something that at least some of us will enjoy?

Mega thanks to Foury for starting this thread. Let's keep the suggestions and dialogue coming.

- Hez
Edited by Hezza on 7/8/2011 10:28 AM PDT
92 Human Mage
5850
Someone needs to rethink the map balance. I'm pretty sure Alliance have it a lot shorter to towers/Galv and not to mention Bal's bunker is facing away from Horde.

It says something that this is the only BG Horde do not have the (slighty) upperhand in win percentage in. Also mages are atheists.


If horde plays their cards right there is no reason they shouldnt win most avs. Your choke point comes much much sooner in the game than ours does. Ever since the reinforcements were implemented the alliance bridge has lost most of it's luster.

We wont get into galv vs belinda.....
85 Troll Rogue
13250
Ahhhh the alliance bridge. Played as strong as 25 horde it did in those days. :P

Seriously though, choke points in general are of little use to those that just want to zerg to the end. You're right about the IB choke point though. When Horde started using that effectively almost every game, Blizz moved our starting cave south so it would be tougher to organize there in the beginning. Not saying that it should be moved back, just saying you're correct about its usefulness.
90 Blood Elf Warlock
4375
07/08/2011 10:23 AMPosted by Hezza
The need for reinforcements has come and gone in my mind. Recall that when TBC hit, pvp gear required specific BG marks (which were rewarded at the end of a game: 3 for winning, 1 for losing, regardless of time spent or honor accrued). This meant that to gear up you had to run AV whether you liked it or not. Being that AV (without reinforcements) usually took longer than WSG, AB, or EotS complaints arose. Adding in reinforcements was a band-aid fix to address that problem. If AV is removed from the random BG rotation, then I don't see why reinforcements are needed, although I would also accept a modification to the system where reinforcements are harder to lose and easier to gain back via the mines.


You make a fine point, but if the last of my suggestions is implanted, then the need for resources isn't as great as if it was endless. Your right with the marks, however, because you got three marks for winning pushed people to play more defensively, and in turn, the battlegrounds lasted much longer, all over two marks. The new honor system encourages running a lot of battlegrounds, with winning, although a goal, no one is going to complain as much as losing as before. Both honor systems are flawed in my opinion. What we can do is tune the honor system for AV a bit differently to actually encourage pvp and teamwork.

I'm sure I'll be stepping on toes here, but I think a zerg of the opposing team's general should be incredibly difficult to pull off. I don't want to say Blizzard should make it impossible, as I like having different ways to win a BG as immense as AV. However, if you want to zerg down the general with all Marshals/Warmasters still up, you should have to commit your entire team to the effort. The tank damage should be high, the "raid" damage should be high (to borrow a PvE term) and the healers' job should be diffcult.I also don't think it would be a bad idea for the elite NPCs to return to the towers (they were removed late in TBC). I'm not sure that all the NPCs from AV 1.0 need to come back, but some would be welcome imo.


I agree, everything is to easy to pull off. There are objectives you have to do already to make killing the opposing leader actually killable, but people are so in a hurry to get the battleground done they just sit at the enemy's base and wait until a few people cap towers. This should not be allowed, it should require the entire team!

07/08/2011 10:23 AMPosted by Hezza
Debatable point. I don't think this is needed, but I wouldn't oppose it either.


Basically to provide the team a last stand/ditch effort to prevent the opposing team from slaying the enemy leader.

I've said this earlier in the thread. Honor rewards are a tricky thing. Yes you want to be rewarded for your efforts, but if you over- or under-tune the honor for an objective you may well be influencing whether or not that objective is considered "worthy" by the masses. In my idealized mind, you play AV to win by whichever method is best suited for the team you are fighting. No two oppositions will be the same, so each AV can and should be played a bit differently. Maybe have a lump sum of honor for winning (and little to none for losing) so that winning is what is emphasized, not necessarily the method. But then you have to consider whether you should be rewarded more for a 2hr win via summoning elite units or a 15min win via a strong offensive push to the general. I don't know what the answer is to this.


If we could tweak it so that it would actually be essential to winning, then yes. The idea should be the team slowly pushes themselves to the opposing base, using everything to defeat the defenders and npcs. The real question then becomes whether it is needed to defend, speeding up how fast the gys and towers can be captured should make it so.
85 Human Mage
0
07/08/2011 12:11 PMPosted by Gilaras
Basically to provide the team a last stand/ditch effort to prevent the opposing team from slaying the enemy leader.


I think that if Aid Station and Relief Hut were uncapturable, it would be extremely hard to kill the enemy general even with all towers down. If the insignia were updated to level 85 (and the game lengthened) players would easily be able to teleport to their base for a "last stand" type fight.
85 Troll Rogue
13250
Sounds like you and I are mostly in agreement, Gilaras. I don't pretend to know exactly what the fixes are... but I do see problems and I think many of them could be remedied by ripping off the years of band-aids that have been applied.

Here's to hoping that hell freezes over soon so that Blizzard may fix AV :)
85 Human Mage
0
07/08/2011 03:58 PMPosted by Hezza
I do see problems and I think many of them could be remedied by ripping off the years of band-aids that have been applied.


This analogy is spot-on. Blizzard has been giving simple first aid treatment to AV for too long now - It's time to take it in to see a doctor.
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