Where are the RAID PUG's?

87 Blood Elf Rogue
6775
So then the issue really is basically the difficulty level of Firelands, the fact that the newest content isn't puggable?


Again, I wasn't lucky enough to start cata in guild that blew through content. Blame it on me if you must, maybe I am a BAD. But without the previous tiers experience and the current tuning of t12 what chance do I, or many like me have at running firelands while its current? I guess I'm supposed to be happy that i can supposedly pug t11 and just shut up about it? Because thats the vibe I'm getting here


No, I'm not assuming you are a bad. There are a large number of variables that could make Firelands inaccessible to you in its current implentation.

I simply disagree that "your demographic" is being ignored. Blizzard nerfed tier 11 for the more casual (not bad, casual) or time limited player. At the same time, they brought out a new raid tuned for "my demographic", and new hard modes tuned for a third demographic.

I'm also not suggesting you shut up about anything, sorry if you got that vibe. Like I said, I understand wanting to be in the newest, flashiest content. But I do think that whether or not content is current is relative to whether or not you've completed it, not how recently it was released.

I'm happy with the results of Blizzard's current efforts to please multiple player-bases. I understand you aren't, mostly because of the difficulty level of Firelands it sounds like, or perhaps its more the time commitment it requires.

Would you rather Blizzard ignored my middle-ground demographic and simply made new raids easy mode so that all, or most, players have access to them? That doesn't seem like a viable option to me, if I want to continue to enjoy the game.
Edited by Alyzaria on 6/30/2011 2:51 PM PDT
100 Night Elf Druid
16415
Form a raid group and let everyone know that you haven't done the fight before and see how many raiders you keep.

True, nothing is stopping anyone from forming a raid group but not having the prior experience is stopping them from actually raiding to earn it.


Or you could just do 5 minutes of research on the fights tell people that you know them and then not fail at the mechanics.
87 Blood Elf Rogue
6775
06/30/2011 02:42 PMPosted by Fayul
And quite frankly i don't get much enjoyment planning my life around a game and the needs of 9 or 24 other virtual people.


Raiding is and should be considered a commitment to 9/24 other people. They are relying on you to show up and know what you are doing, and to put in the best effort you are capable of during any given raid.

If you don't want to make that commitment, you shouldn't, in my opinion, be raiding.
87 Blood Elf Rogue
11870
06/30/2011 07:29 AMPosted by Aelasar


I would but:

1. My Guild is on a break

2. My schedule doesn't match up with theirs now (got a new job)

I PUG'd my way through a good chunk of ICC, but it looks like I am SoL for Cata.


ICC was also the last raid of the expansion, giving Blizzard ample time to nerf the previous raid tiers and give the 30% ICC buff.

Cata is still semi-new.


No, Everything, and I mean every single raid was being pugged in Wrath. Now, it's just not worth it when one person can wipe the raid.
The terrible community which has made people prefer to sticking solely to their guild is what killed PUGs. (Though I do see the occasional raid group forming in Trade every day.)
19 Draenei Shaman
5845
I think part of the issue here, that no one is really bringing up, is that the people interested in PUG'ing the raids haven't done them before, and they know that the people that have are more than likely unwilling to go do content that is behind them. It's like asking someone in t11 to PUG a normal heroic dungeon. They may have the urge, but more than likely they'll just do the current content and spend the rest of their time online with alts, PVP'ing, etc.

Yes, a lot of people in this thread could start their own PUG groups for t11. But, the likelihood of them succeeding is very, very low. After all, if none (or very few) of the people who have done t11 are willing to do it now, that means you're going to have 10 or 25 people that have a.) never done t11 before, and b.) possibly never done anything besides normal heroics before.

People say, "form your own group" but that has to be hard for people that don't have any clue what's ahead of them. I mean, would ANY of you choose to go into a raid with a raid leader that has no clue how the fights go? Unless you're a hardcore progressive guild, the answer is no. And, even for those that are, you know you're going into a new raid with competent people. There is no guarantee of that in a trade channel PUG.

Who wants to wait around 1-2 hours for a group to form, get to the raid and then hear someone say, "ok...who knows how this works?" Only to hear crickets.

The dungeon journal goes a long way towards fixing this, but reading something and seeing it in action are two very different things.

This is exactly where a test run/simulator would be an amazing tool to have. If you could go to like Caverns of Time and que for the past tier's raid and do a trial run of the bosses with automated players (and sped up, with increased damage/healing) then that would be so perfect. You could even get achievements out of it, so you had something to link to players when you were forming a PUG. "No, I haven't done Nef before, but I've run the simulation so I know how the fight goes. Here's my achieve."

As it stands, though, PUG's are almost all destined to fail. Even with the nerfs. If for no other reason that after one wipe people have the LFD mentality that it's fail to try again, and people would just leave. Then you're out 2 hours of playtime and have literally nothing to show for it.
100 Night Elf Priest
16620
What are people complaining about now? If you wanted to do the current tier, you could have done it before the patch. It was too hard you say? Well, that's the point. If the current tier was easily puggable before it got any nerfs and before it was easy to outgear it, then it would only last a couple of months and people would say they are bored of it. Most servers don't have much of the new raid down.. and a lot of guilds are still running the previous tier, so its not as old as the complainers are claiming.

It just amazes me that before the nerf, some non-raiders complain about it being too hard to pug, and post-nerf, they complain that its old and they want to be able to do the current content instead.


This.
19 Draenei Shaman
5845
That still doesn' change the fact that unless you are extremely fortunate like I was that you will still not se current content. It's "Post acheive or be ignored"


This is very, very true. Anyone forming PUGS on my server wants your item level to be 359 already...even though that is the level of gear that DROPS from those raids. They also want the achieve linked. It's the same crap that happened in WOTLK with gearscore.
85 Worgen Death Knight
7825
06/30/2011 01:25 PMPosted by Bashiok
I think we'd agree that we need some better ways to get pug raids together considering we intend to follow the "New Raid is Hard, old Tier is Puggable" format from here on.


PuGs still fail on Chogall and Nef. They are still too complex even with the nerfs for your average pug.

If you plan to go with this concept of making them puggable then you need to change the mechanics as well or they still will only get downed by guild doing alt raids for the shoulder tokens.
85 Dwarf Shaman
5025
06/30/2011 02:46 PMPosted by Alyzaria
No, I'm not assuming you are a bad. There are a large number of variables that could make Firelands inaccessible to you in its current implentation.


Ok fair enough

06/30/2011 02:46 PMPosted by Alyzaria
I simply disagree that "your demographic" is being ignored. Blizzard nerfed tier 11 for the more casual (not bad, casual) or time limited player. At the same time, they brought out a new raid tuned for "my demographic", and new hard modes tuned for a third demographic.


Heres the thing, unless you have already cleared or gotten a ways into t11 good luck with a pug



I'm also suggesting you shut up about anything, sorry if you got that vibe. Like I said, I understand wanting to be in the newest, flashiest content. But I do think that whether or not content is current is relative to whether or not you've completed it, not how recently it was released.


I'm just going to assume the shut up part was a typo. And yes, I would love to be a part of the new and shiny, don't we all?

06/30/2011 02:46 PMPosted by Alyzaria
I'm happy with the results of Blizzard's current efforts to please multiple player-bases. I understand you aren't, mostly because of the difficulty level of Firelands it sounds like, or perhaps its more the time commitment it requires.


Gratz to you then, my intentions here aren't to ruin someone e;lse experiences, but rather to enhance my own




06/30/2011 02:46 PMPosted by Alyzaria
Would you rather Blizzard ignored my middle-ground demographic and simply made new raids easy mode so that all, or most, players have access to them? That doesn't seem like a viable option to me, if I want to continue to enjoy the game.






Again, I really don't want anyone left in the dark here. And nowhere did I say or imply that a whole tier needed to be stupid easy. But how would you feel next tier(and i'm going to assume you are moderatly talented and progressed player here) that they had implemented a new philosophy for raids and normals will now be at the old heroic curve and heroics will be mind boggling hard? Because thats what they did to me with cata


Edit: Aptly named toon, i fail at typing
Edited by Fayul on 6/30/2011 3:03 PM PDT
85 Human Death Knight
4595
Can't find one? Make one.


I've always found these types of retorts to be very snarky to be honest.

The reality is that it's not easy to lead a raid group. Not everyone is suited to lead a group (in fact, few are suited to do it well IMVHO). As such, telling someone that it's inclined to be a natural leader to just " go out and lead" is facetious to say the least.
100 Human Priest
8280
06/30/2011 01:25 PMPosted by Bashiok
we intend to follow the "New Raid is Hard, old Tier is Puggable" format from here on.


Thank you.
64 Goblin Priest
RED
520
PuGs still fail on Chogall and Nef. They are still too complex even with the nerfs for your average pug.

If you plan to go with this concept of making them puggable then you need to change the mechanics as well or they still will only get downed by guild doing alt raids for the shoulder tokens.


I'm guessing your average pug has barely pulled either boss more than once or twice. Give people time to learn the mechanics and soon enough it'll be much easier.
87 Blood Elf Rogue
11870
Also people who wanted to see t11, saw that tier before 4.2. So pretty much t11 is only going to be alt runs.

And yes, VP gains via ZG/ZA need to be nerfed. Big time.


I remember back in Wrath when the badge change took effect.

Me: Hey guys, lets start a pug raid to go farm Naxx for some badges
Guild: Naw, let's just farm some heroics, more badges/hour plus less retards to slow us down.

Same thing will happen now as it's faster, and easier, to just farm ZA/ZG for the VP's and then just farm regular heroics for your T11.
100 Night Elf Druid
16415
06/30/2011 02:53 PMPosted by Milsa
That still doesn' change the fact that unless you are extremely fortunate like I was that you will still not se current content. It's "Post acheive or be ignored"


That's very very true if you're trying to pug current content, what you're not explaining is why that's a problem. BWD, BoT and TotW should now be pretty easily puggable, and based on what i saw in trade the last couple nights there are in fact plenty of people interested in and taking advantage of that.

Between 359 gear from JP, the new VP gear and fireland rep rewards it should also be very easy to out gear t11 content now.
85 Worgen Druid
5525
I dont understand the complaint here, especially the comment about having to raid or die. I would assume a new raid should be hard, so yeah you should have to find a raiding guild to clear it. If you dont want to join one then dont worry about it, I am sure theres plenty of things you could find to do here besides raid. I mean who really wants to pug anything all the time? Pugs are always a damn pain it seems.
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