4.2 almost cleared in 2weeks? Expected?

93 Human Paladin
17115
07/07/2011 01:09 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Anyhow...was 4.2 designed to be quick like this?


I am endlessly intrigued to find players judging the difficulty of the encounters and how long lived the content is by how pro players, some of the most skilled and focused players in the world, engage the content. It's a little like judging the difficulty of juggling eight chainsaws by what the best jugglers in the world can accomplish. Sure, it might be easy for them, but when was the last time you tried it? (Do not attempt to juggle eight chainsaws. Do not attempt to juggle any chainsaws. Unless you are a juggler. A professional chainsaw juggler. A really, really good professional chainsaw juggler who does not fear chainsaw manglings.)

The content wasn't designed to be 'quick'. It was designed to be epic, engaging, challenging and fun. It can accomplish those goals without being punishing.

It is kind of remarkable how fun and engaging the content can be when we start judging content by what we accomplish and experience ourselves, rather than the posts we read on the forums or the headlines of a fansite.


The obvious solution is to design more bosses that juggle chainsaws.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11545
Your argument would hold more weight if it were only the top tier guilds clearing so fast. Killing normal mode Rag on Monday night would give you world 1200th rank. 1200 guilds are already working on heroics this, the 2nd week. Heroics at least seem to be progressing a bit slower, but I fully expect a few hundred guilds to be at least 4/7 by Monday night.

If it were just the top 10 or even 50 guilds progressing so fast, I don't think anyone would be worried. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening here. Maybe this week we'll see those second tier guilds hit a wall even if the top tier clear it all quickly, but so far that just doesn't seem to be the case.


More than just the top guilds have been on test practicing their chainsaw juggling for months already. Essentially normals for all of them were just a speed bump that was easily cleared before the week was up and heroics were enabled. When it comes to heroics the top guilds are clearing and posting guides. You get much further faster when standiing on the shoulders of giants.
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2 Tauren Paladin
0

Your argument would hold more weight if it were only the top tier guilds clearing so fast. Killing normal mode Rag on Monday night would give you world 1200th rank. 1200 guilds are already working on heroics this, the 2nd week. Heroics at least seem to be progressing a bit slower, but I fully expect a few hundred guilds to be at least 4/7 by Monday night.

If it were just the top 10 or even 50 guilds progressing so fast, I don't think anyone would be worried. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening here. Maybe this week we'll see those second tier guilds hit a wall even if the top tier clear it all quickly, but so far that just doesn't seem to be the case.


Disregard the speed at which normals were cleared. Those 1,200 guilds were all decked out in 372 gear, which means they already outgeared t12N on top of being very good players. Normal firelands bosses are designed, and rightfully so, for people in 359 gear.

For comparison, normal mode Nef took over a month for the world 1000th guild to kill, and normal mode Cho'gall and Al'akir took over 3 weeks. Even considering things like leveling time, adjusting to new expansion mechanics, starting from a lower relative gear level, etc. for the first tier, that's still a huge difference between 1200 world Rag kills in the first week.
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85 Worgen Druid
4500
07/07/2011 01:59 PMPosted by Soreni
Bosses are intrinsically less enjoyable to engage on "heroic mode" after you have already watched them die multiple times on Normal mode.


If you really want to just experience heroics and skip normals, find 10 people in your guild who don't mind clearing normals first (trust me, they'll be in no short supply) and take a break from raiding while they unlock heroic raids for you. Next week, go experience heroics for the first time and never take it off heroic mode again.

Don't want to do that? Didn't think so.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4575
You do realize that it took almost 2 months to clear 12/12 and 13/13 right? The 2nd week of Cata Paragon was already killing Heroic Modes.

Considering there are 7 bosses I am going to assume its going to take half that time before we see a full heroic clear, 2 more weeks and it will all be over.
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2 Tauren Paladin
0
07/07/2011 02:14 PMPosted by Zergalqt
Firelands is ToC 2.0. Most bosses are pretty simple except Heroic Rag that will most likely be a giant cockblock that will make most raider bash their head into a wall trying to kill him, like Heroic Anub was, while the rest of the instance was fairly simple.


And ToC is universally derided as the worst tier or raiding in WoW's history by top raiders.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13005


If you're killing Rag in less than a month, you're jumping to heroics pretty damn quickly. Why is it ok to wipe on the same bosses again and again on normal, but once you get to heroic it's suddenly unacceptable to face the same boss again? By all accounts you're getting these bosses down fast, I fail to see how facing a boss a few times on normal and then wiping on heroic is much worse than wiping on normal.


To the heroic-mode haters, for the love of God, this.


The first time you actually see a difficult boss drop over dead is by far the most enjoyable aspect of raiding. Nothing in the PvE side of this game beats this feeling.

Yes, it is more fun to wipe on Normals multiple times before kill simply because it makes the final first-kill that much more rewarding. Seeing the same boss fall over dead later, but with higher numbers attached to his nameplate, is by no means as much fun.

Heroics are a grind of content that you have already cleared. Normals are progressing through unexplored territory and being rewarded visually in a novel fashion after each successive boss falls.
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22 Tauren Druid
290
You talk as though this content wasn't on the PTR for a month or five.

Find the highest ranked guild in which none of the players went on the PTR. How well are they doing?


To clarify a few things, Hardmodes were not available on the PTR as long as you think. To my knowledge they had 1-2 encounters for 4hours or so. Clearly that is not the reason content is being so easily cleared.
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85 Worgen Druid
4500


Disregard the speed at which normals were cleared. Those 1,200 guilds were all decked out in 372 gear, which means they already outgeared t12N on top of being very good players. Normal firelands bosses are designed, and rightfully so, for people in 359 gear.

For comparison, normal mode Nef took over a month for the world 1000th guild to kill, and normal mode Cho'gall and Al'akir took over 3 weeks. Even considering things like leveling time, adjusting to new expansion mechanics, starting from a lower relative gear level, etc. for the first tier, that's still a huge difference between 1200 world Rag kills in the first week.


There is where I disagree. Those factors combined can easily turn 3 weeks into 1. And nearly everyone, including the hardcore who were among the first 1,000 to do it, felt at the time that Nef was overtuned. It probably was.
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90 Troll Druid
11800
You don't know how long those guilds worked on the content every day and how much they ran them on the PTR, the illustration from the GM states it very well, you can't judge how hard the content is by the best players, if blizzard tuned the encounters for them they would have to deal with a mountain of tears from everyone else.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
13005
07/07/2011 02:15 PMPosted by Aaronomus
Bosses are intrinsically less enjoyable to engage on "heroic mode" after you have already watched them die multiple times on Normal mode.


If you really want to just experience heroics and skip normals, find 10 people in your guild who don't mind clearing normals first (trust me, they'll be in no short supply) and take a break from raiding while they unlock heroic raids for you. Next week, go experience heroics for the first time and never take it off heroic mode again.

Don't want to do that? Didn't think so.


Please, continue to ignore the social aspects of a guild full of friends in order to further your "argument" that less content is really okay. If it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

In the meantime, I'll be hanging out with my friends as, together, we bemoan the upcoming months and months of grinding harder versions of content we cleared way too fast.

I'm still waiting on an explanation as to why we went the longest period of time between first-and-second raid tiers in an end-game iteration ever and only ended up with half of content to which we are accustomed.
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91 Blood Elf Paladin
10220
Anyhow...was 4.2 designed to be quick like this?


I am endlessly intrigued to find players judging the difficulty of the encounters and how long lived the content is by how pro players, some of the most skilled and focused players in the world, engage the content. It's a little like judging the difficulty of juggling eight chainsaws by what the best jugglers in the world can accomplish. Sure, it might be easy for them, but when was the last time you tried it? (Do not attempt to juggle eight chainsaws. Do not attempt to juggle any chainsaws. Unless you are a juggler. A professional chainsaw juggler. A really, really good professional chainsaw juggler who does not fear chainsaw manglings.)

The content wasn't designed to be 'quick'. It was designed to be epic, engaging, challenging and fun. It can accomplish those goals without being punishing.

It is kind of remarkable how fun and engaging the content can be when we start judging content by what we accomplish and experience ourselves, rather than the posts we read on the forums or the headlines of a fansite.


I'd like a behind the scenes on the development process of patches at Blizzard. Seems like it certainly takes a very long time for any amount of content to come out....almost every other mmo or game company publishes quality content and patches like mad...and blizzard is sitting on a cash cow and can't even be bothered to deliver...
Edited by Vael on 7/7/2011 2:22 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13095
News flash, Regular Firelands is tuned for people in, gasp, normal T11 gear (ilvl 359). If your raid has heroic T11 gear, then the content should be easier for you.
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85 Night Elf Druid
4630
If the best in the world can't beat the content quickly then that means that the content is BS. The only way to slow them down would be artificial Like making sure that even perfectly played dps don't have the dps to beat encounters until farming other encounters for weeks. Or RNG instant wipes(Actually this probably wouldn't work, they'd just ram into it for 12 hours a day until they got lucky).

And if they do either of those what about the people who's job is literally to play the game?

I guess you could gate content so a boss unlocks every two weeks or whatever, but really, what's the point?
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91 Blood Elf Paladin
10220
07/07/2011 02:23 PMPosted by Galadeon
News flash, Regular Firelands is tuned for people in, gasp, normal T11 gear (ilvl 359). If your raid has heroic T11 gear, then the content should be easier for you.


Honestly why doesn't Blizzard let the hardcore guilds just start off by doing Heroics? All it does is give them 1 extra week that they don't even care about anyway. Make the Heroic mode stupid insane hard to give these "Pro" people something to grind at for a while.
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58 Blood Elf Death Knight
520
The content is fairly easy. We learned 3/7 day 1 because we figured it'd be a challenge. 2 hours later we're encountering bosses we were unprepared for. Next raid night 6/7. It's not terribly difficult and we expect a rag kill this week. Most of the heroic modes even look laughably easy as well. I expect 2-3 filler raids (like ony or halion) to pass the 6 months till the next raid comes out. I feel like very quickly this content is going to get old and boring.
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90 Human Paladin
9475


To the heroic-mode haters, for the love of God, this.


The first time you actually see a difficult boss drop over dead is by far the most enjoyable aspect of raiding. Nothing in the PvE side of this game beats this feeling.

Yes, it is more fun to wipe on Normals multiple times before kill simply because it makes the final first-kill that much more rewarding. Seeing the same boss fall over dead later, but with higher numbers attached to his nameplate, is by no means as much fun.

Heroics are a grind of content that you have already cleared. Normals are progressing through unexplored territory and being rewarded visually in a novel fashion after each successive boss falls.


This all seems a mental issue on your part that has nothing to do with the challenge and everything to do with seeing him drop dead. You see pixels go down, and suddenly beating him again means nothing.

This also seems decidedly ungamer like. I've played games over time and time again if they've offered greater difficulty, but seems like with guys like yourself you'll beat a game as easily as possible and that's it.
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100 Gnome Mage
7890
This is an outrage!! The Firelands should be so hard nobody can play it!!

>.>
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