Disc Priests need a new Mastery

86 Draenei Priest
7770
The main problem is not that mastery isn't effective for Discipline, it's that we are discouraged from using the two spells that are affected by it.

Blizzard has stated, more than once, that PW:Shield is meant to be used only sometimes, and PoH is not something that should just be spammed.

When the costs of shields and Prayer of Healing become burdensome, it won't matter how much mastery you have, casting those spells will be a detriment (outside of procing rapture).

While i don't think mastery needs a buff, I do think it needs to be more effective. It needs to affect our spell usage in a more dynamic way.

For example (Read: EXAMPLE): In addition to strengthening our shields and absorbs, what if mastery also increased their duration? Say... by 0.025sec per point of mastery.

That may (not) be the solution, or even useful, but it would be a start in giving mastery more of an overall use seeing as it is a niche use for, according to blizzard, niche spells.


Also, this same situation applies to Frost mages. While they are certainly not in need of any major buffs, they do suffer from the same mastery woes as disc. To the point where mastery is almost completely devalued for them (I can't comment on it's pvp viability though, only pve).
Their mastery is only effective when they are in a very specific situation, and this situation normally requires set-up from the mage, and this situation has a short duration out of the mage's control.

This is sort of how disc mastery feels.
Edited by Pleasurizer on 7/15/2011 8:16 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Priest
6170
07/15/2011 03:57 PMPosted by Valen
disc priest stats are very peculiar and counterintuitive


agree and disagree.

If you throw out the old paradigm of Disc = PWS only and instead focus on the interaction of direct heals and Divine Aegis as the core of the spec, you'll find that there is unity in our secondary stats.

When we are casting direct heals: Crit increases the chance of proccing Divine Aegis, Mastery increases the size of the Aegis when is DOES proc, and Haste gives more chances to have a critical effect. All three are important and their effects are fairly well balanced (else it would be easier to pinpoint the best stat) so it ultimately comes down to one's playstyle as the deciding factor in superior stat.

Indeed it is a tricky puzzle trying to Min/Max a Disc Priest, but that's not a bad thing. I rather like the fact that with the absence of conclusive theorycrafting I have the freedom (and responsibility) to try things out myself and see what works best for me.
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85 Gnome Priest
4305
Take mastery off the PW:S and put to affect only Aegis, BUT, with Aegis coming from every heal.
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85 Worgen Priest
4295
The root of the issue is this -- our Mastery affects our spells in very different ways.

The intent is exactly that. If mastery affected all of your spells the same way, then it would really just be a “+healing” stat, which we already offer (Intellect). Crit and haste don’t affect all your spells the same way, and we think it’s a more interesting design if mastery behaves the same way. It is possible to go too far of course. If mastery doesn’t affect enough of your entire healing package (either in terms of number of spells or raw output), then it just becomes a weak stat. Alternatively, it can lead classes, and healers in particular, to neglect spells that are weak because mastery doesn’t boost them.


I agree with this

Disc stats are fine as is. Int is your #1 as it is for all healers and for choosing your secondaries:

Mastery: best for pws by a long shot, still slightly boosts tank healing/pohing
Crit: Good for poh and tank healing (tradeoff is more hpm for less hps), bad for pws
Haste: Better than crit at everything but less hpm
Spirit: More regen

A case can be made for gearing for either crit, haste, mastery, or a mix of them depending on what kind of assignments you usually get and what your raid comp is. Additionally, choosing between spirit and running two throughput secondaries is also an option for disc. Disc has multiple viable gearing schemes which is more than can be said for many specs in the game right now.
Edited by Aardvarks on 7/15/2011 9:26 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
7530
While it is fine where it is. You need a lot of mastery to up your shields only a little. Say we have a base of 25k and sitting at about 11% mastery. for the amount of actual points that goes into mastery to bring it up a single percent. It does very little to our shields.
thus it would be better to reforge into crit as those critical heals will help more than anything. I don't know how it is for pvp now. will figure out in days to come. But at least let out mastery bump it up a little more.

I don't even see a single thousand difference by adding another 3% mastery for crying out loud. In shadow, that gives an extra thousand damage. but for us. Think 500 shields. At the cost of our crit.

While it is good now for pve, and pvp. For pve, maybe with a simple change in tooltip. Can say that it behaves differently in pvp for balance issues as we don't need 40k shields. would be nice. But for pve, making the percent to sheild increase ratio could be changed to make ours better.
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31 Undead Priest
380
07/15/2011 05:28 PMPosted by Zarhym
The root of the issue is this -- our Mastery affects our spells in very different ways.

The intent is exactly that. If mastery affected all of your spells the same way, then it would really just be a “+healing” stat, which we already offer (Intellect). Crit and haste don’t affect all your spells the same way, and we think it’s a more interesting design if mastery behaves the same way. It is possible to go too far of course. If mastery doesn’t affect enough of your entire healing package (either in terms of number of spells or raw output), then it just becomes a weak stat. Alternatively, it can lead classes, and healers in particular, to neglect spells that are weak because mastery doesn’t boost them.


This is like the weirdest explanation blizzard has ever given, specially concerning disc. which only 2 spells benefit from mastery. I'd say that that isn't enough of the healing package. Then you come out and say that a +healing stat isn't good for a mastery, did you see what you gave resto druids this patch? are we playing the same game? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills
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85 Night Elf Druid
2175
07/15/2011 05:28 PMPosted by Zarhym
The root of the issue is this -- our Mastery affects our spells in very different ways.

The intent is exactly that. If mastery affected all of your spells the same way, then it would really just be a “+healing” stat, which we already offer (Intellect). Crit and haste don’t affect all your spells the same way, and we think it’s a more interesting design if mastery behaves the same way. It is possible to go too far of course. If mastery doesn’t affect enough of your entire healing package (either in terms of number of spells or raw output), then it just becomes a weak stat. Alternatively, it can lead classes, and healers in particular, to neglect spells that are weak because mastery doesn’t boost them.


I totally get what the Op is saying though, Disc priest weak spell gets a bonus from its weak mastery, thus making it weak squared. Playing a disc priest through all 85 levels PW: Shield was such a great spell from the time I got it til about level 83. 84 and moreso 85 it is just bad and its only use is mana regen. if this is the setup blizz wants for disc priests I may as well have 0 mastery and get my mana regen faster.
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85 Gnome Priest
5785
I totally get what the Op is saying though, Disc priest weak spell gets a bonus from its weak mastery, thus making it weak squared. Playing a disc priest through all 85 levels PW: Shield was such a great spell from the time I got it til about level 83. 84 and moreso 85 it is just bad and its only use is mana regen. if this is the setup blizz wants for disc priests I may as well have 0 mastery and get my mana regen faster.


PW: Shield gets used a ton more than just for mana.... Disc Priests are lucky because their isn't a "right" answer for stat weights for all disc priests. Disc stat weights are based entirely on your play style. If you use PW:S a lot (plenty of priests do) then you'll benefit a ton from mastery. If you use mostly PoH or mostly direct tank heals then your stat weights change. Disc priest mastery is not broken and it certainly works well.
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85 Night Elf Druid
2175

PW: Shield gets used a ton more than just for mana.... Disc Priests are lucky because their isn't a "right" answer for stat weights for all disc priests. Disc stat weights are based entirely on your play style. If you use PW:S a lot (plenty of priests do) then you'll benefit a ton from mastery. If you use mostly PoH or mostly direct tank heals then your stat weights change. Disc priest mastery is not broken and it certainly works well.


I dunno man, I tried the mastery stack when I turned 85 and all I did was go oom and wipe 5 mans.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
16940
I was curious about the interaction of crit and mastery on regular heals, PoHeals, and PW:S. I came up with this:

1. Each of these assumes a 10k "base" heal. That is, one that does not crit.
2. They assume that both a critical heal will not overheal and a shield will not under-shield. (It will be fully used.)
3. These assume averages. That means if you had 35% crit, and you cast a heal 100 times, it would crit exactly 35 times. The overall healing of those 100 heals, divided by 100, is the point swing.
4. "Points" refers to the amount of HP you would expect to heal/shield, based on increasing your crit by 1% versus increasing your mastery by 1. (1 point of mastery, not mastery rating.)


Direct heals: Crit and mastery being equal, a direct heal will, on average, benefit more from crit, by about 160 points. For every 5 mastery over crit, this increases by about 7.5 points. For every 5% of crit over mastery, this decreases by an equal number. It is not possible for mastery to be more useful than crit for direct heals.

Prayer of Healing: Crit and mastery being equal, a single heal from prayer of healing will benefit more from crit, by about 85 points. For every 5 mastery over crit, this increases by about 7.5 points. For every 5% of crit over mastery, this decreases by an equal number. When your crit % is more than ~57 greater than your mastery, mastery is a better stat. Otherwise, crit is.

Power Word Shield: Crit and mastery being equal, a glyphed Power Word: Shield will benefit more from mastery, by about 2980 points.* For every 5 mastery over crit, this decreases by about 25 points. For every 5% of crit over mastery, this increases by an equal number. It is not possible for crit to be better than mastery for PW:S. Not even close.

*Note that here it is assumed that a "base" shield is a PW:S that shields for 10,000 if you had 0 mastery. The amount of the shield doesn't change mastery vs. crit, but it does change the value of the numbers.

Here's the code I used to come up with this. If anyone can pick any holes in it, go nuts.

<?php print '<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>'; ?>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
"/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">
<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">
<body>
<h1>Disc Healing</h1>
<p>
<?php

print '<table><caption>Direct Heals</caption><tr><td>c\m</td>';
for($m=0; $m<=95; $m+=5) {
print "<th>$m</th>";
}
print "</tr>";

for($c = 0; $c<=95; $c+=5) {
print "<tr><th>$c</th>";
for($m=0; $m<=95; $m+=5) {
$cmdiff = round(baseheals(10000, $c+1, $m) - baseheals(10000, $c, $m+1));
print "<td title=\"crit: $c; mast: $m\">$cmdiff</td>";
}
print "</tr>";
}
print "</table>";

print '<table><caption>Prayer of Healing</caption><tr><td>c\m</td>';
for($m=0; $m<=95; $m+=5) {
print "<th>$m</th>";
}
print "</tr>";

for($c = 0; $c<=95; $c+=5) {
print "<tr><th>$c</th>";
for($m=0; $m<=95; $m+=5) {
$cmdiff = round(pohheals(10000, $c+1, $m) - pohheals(10000, $c, $m+1));
print "<td title=\"crit: $c; mast: $m\">$cmdiff</td>";
}
print "</tr>";
}
print "</table>";


print '<table><caption>Power Word: Shield</caption><tr><td>c\m</td>';
for($m=0; $m<=95; $m+=5) {
print "<th>$m</th>";
}
print "</tr>";

for($c = 0; $c<=95; $c+=5) {
print "<tr><th>$c</th>";
for($m=0; $m<=95; $m+=5) {
$c1 = round(pwshield(10000, $c+1, $m));
$m1 = round(pwshield(10000, $c, $m+1));
$cmdiff = round(pwshield(10000, $c+1, $m) - pwshield(10000, $c, $m+1));
print "<td title=\"crit: $c; mast: $m; c1: $c1; m1: $m1\">$cmdiff</td>";
}
print "</tr>";
}
print "</table>";

function baseheals($base, $crit, $mastery) {
$critheal = $base * 2;
$shield = $critheal * (0.3 * (1 + .025 * $mastery));
$critchance = $crit / 100;
$avgeffect = ($critheal + $shield) * $critchance + $base * (1 - $critchance);

return $avgeffect;
}

function pohheals($base, $crit, $mastery) {
$baseshield = $base * 0.3 * (1 + .025 * $mastery);
$critheal = $base * 2;
$critshield = $critheal * (0.3 * (1 + .025 * $mastery));
$critchance = $crit / 100;
$avgeffect = ($critheal + $critshield + $baseshield) * $critchance + ($base + $baseshield) * (1 - $critchance);

return $avgeffect;
}

function pwshield($base, $crit, $mastery) {
$baseshield = $base * (1 + 0.25 * $mastery); // here means base shield with 0 crit or mastery
$baseglyphheal = 0.2 * $baseshield;
$critglyphheal = $baseglyphheal * 2;
$critshield = $critglyphheal * 0.3 * (1 + 0.25 + $mastery);
$critchance = $crit / 100;
$avgeffect = ($baseshield + $critglyphheal + critshield) * $critchance + ($baseshield + $baseglyphheal) * (1 - $critchance);

return $avgeffect;
}


?>
</p>
</body>
</html>


There you have it. Copy and paste and run as a PHP script.
Edited by Azreluna on 7/15/2011 10:51 PM PDT
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85 Gnome Priest
5785
07/15/2011 10:35 PMPosted by Luralauang
I dunno man, I tried the mastery stack when I turned 85 and all I did was go oom and wipe 5 mans.


Sounds like you aren't very good at disc as a priest. Mastery wont' have an effect on whether you wipe or not in 5mans. Those are dependent on player skill.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
5910
I think he is saying that while it does affect our spells in very different ways it is too weak and too inconsistent to be a stat that is relied on. Its odd that you choose to make our mastery affect something you want us to do less. I know that argument has been made 1 million times but its quite frustrating to see a mastery based on shields, then see you guys in the same breath say use shields less and actually cast spells. Which I trust me I agree with PW:S spam is a very lazy and boring way to heal. Honestly this entire expansion I haven't focused on one stat at all. I have basically used stock stats on my gear since day one not really sure one was more efficient than the orther. I still top charts and I'm a very effective healer I just feel like secondary stats are just that something that hey I'm glad I have this much "Insert random stat here" but I'm not going to worry about "insert other stat here" because they aren't appealing enough to spend the 1 copper to reforge them.
Not saying this is what happened but it seems like you guys were running out the door to go home the day before the release of the xpac, and you were like oh %*@# we forgot to give disc a mastery. Lets just buff their shields and say it makes them unique.


Wall of text is wall of texty
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85 Troll Druid
3940
Every forum is people whining and picking out every little detail that they do not agree with....Every single post...makes me want to jump off a bridge...World of Warcraft is fine. Not all things will be equal at any given time. People just feel like because they pay 15 bucks a month Blizzard should be there to appease there any desire...we are a community of 10+ million players, we all pay the same every month, and Blizzard does their best to make you happy...as you can tell by them responding to every player who whines about anything on this forum. For example..this topic...seriously? Why would a blue waste his time responding to something so stupid...because he cares about you...the customer..if he did not he would not respond. And by the way why would anyone rely on one stat? Mastery is great for some classes and not so much others..should mastery be everyones top stat? No, that is homogenization and it sucks.
Edited by Durnee on 7/16/2011 2:45 AM PDT
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60 Tauren Druid
11805
great OP, derp blue
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
1950
Mastery across the board, in most classes that do not tank, is pretty lame. Its completely underwhelming and quite frankly reforged out of by pretty much everyone. :c

Especially priests.
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85 Troll Priest
12725
The main problem is not that mastery isn't effective for Discipline, it's that we are discouraged from using the two spells that are affected by it.

Blizzard has stated, more than once, that PW:Shield is meant to be used only sometimes, and PoH is not something that should just be spammed.

Agree completely.

What they've said to us is, "Your spec is focused largely on mitigation/absorbs. Your Mastery reflects this! ...Oh by the way, those spells are for emergencies only and are going to be Mana-intensive, so don't cast too many of them."

Then they wonder why we're not excited about our Mastery. =/

Would it be so game-breaking to see it do more? How about adding some damage reduction percentage to things like Barrier, or Pain Suppression? Affect Power Infusion in some way? Lengthen the up time on our Divine Aegis?
You know...things like that might go along with that tired old "toolbox" analogy they're always yapping about.
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87 Blood Elf Priest
12610

Put another way: our defining and (by almost any measure) "best" spell scales almost completely the opposite from our other spells. If a stat is good for PW:S, it is bad for every other heal; likewise, if a stat is good for every other heal, it is bad for PW:S (the exception being Int, of course).
My main point is it is just a bit extreme right now, particularly since the worst and most boring healing style -- shield spam -- isn't really viable, but with every tier, it gets maybe a bit more doable, which saddens me just like 100% rejuv spam would sadden most Trees. Mastery is too strong for PW:S and not strong enough for every other spell.


This is the point of the thread. It sure seems to me like the supposed concern with mastery is exactly what happens with Disc's. It has too big a variance in value.
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85 Goblin Priest
7875
I like our mastery, I'm stacking it in fact =P
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90 Worgen Priest
13505
I recently went with the whole Mastery/Crit stack, dropping down from something like 10% Haste to 2% Haste. I went through an entire Zul'Aman run healing a new Warrior tank in our guild who was still gearing and mastering his class so I expected some trouble.

... it was not as bad as I expected. I kept him alive, but the major issue I noticed was that when he started taking large hits it was harder to keep pace. I attribute that to the lack of Haste as it simply took too long to use a Smite heal or cast a Greater Heal to effectively keep AHEAD of the damage. We lived of course, but it was touch and go during those fights.

Because of that I've moved to a more balanced approach of favoring Haste over Mastery and Crit, and then favoring Mastery and Crit equally. For me that approach works and I appreciate that the Disc tree really allows for that.

That being said I do agree entirely that our Mastery is designed around spells we are told not to use. I don't see how that is any different than saying "We don't want you to favor Mastery at all". It would be great if Blizzard Devs could come up with some means of allowing our Mastery to be considered a fully viable stat option while still falling in line with their stated goal of shields being situational.

One simply does not spec heavily for situational.
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