Disc Priests need a new Mastery

85 Night Elf Druid
2175
07/15/2011 10:58 PMPosted by Albinosmurfs
I dunno man, I tried the mastery stack when I turned 85 and all I did was go oom and wipe 5 mans.


Sounds like you aren't very good at disc as a priest. Mastery wont' have an effect on whether you wipe or not in 5mans. Those are dependent on player skill.


you left out the oom part
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12745
I have no idea (literally no idea) how you can oom with a Mastery build. Seriously. Maybe it's because I switched from Holy, but as far as I can tell I'm physically incapable of ooming running 15-16 Mastery and a solid amount of crit. I'd have to spam PWS/PoH for like 5 minutes straight...hell, I pretty much do that on Rhyolith and don't oom. Or even come close. I'm running 20-30% overhealing, stacking DA like crazy, shielding anyone I feel like, and not dipping below 30% mana before my fiend comes back up.

Now, with heavy haste I managed to oom in a terrible ZA with all 3 DPS doing 5-7k. That is, I barely managed to oom. It took a lot of work, and it was on a boss fight that went on for ages and ages, and it involved a whole lot of unnecessary damage, and it was before I installed my Rapture timer, and I wasn't used to the Haste playstyle...but at least it was physically possible.
Edited by Kaels on 7/16/2011 6:53 AM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Priest
4595
Mastery is a consistency stat. While I would not object to a revamp of mastery in order to make it interact a bit more frequently with other spells, it does fill the roll of 'if I cast this, I generally know what it is going to heal for'. I like knowing that my PW:S will mitigate above X amount every time. Crit, while nice, falls under the random and I generally keep my haste high with Borrowed Time.

I can't say I'm a fan of haste and crit heavy builds since I am running roughly 20-25% crit once all of my raid buffs are up and having that consistent stat makes me very comfortable, especially since I frequently use shields to give people more time to move from things (such as Majordomo's cat phase leaps). If my shields healed less on that, it would make it harder on us and make the healing much, much more frantic.

There may be more theoretical HPS in other builds and other builds may be used successfully - and some day, I may try them. However, I value consistency. No other stat provides this too me.
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31 Undead Priest
380
I have no idea (literally no idea) how you can oom with a Mastery build. Seriously. Maybe it's because I switched from Holy, but as far as I can tell I'm physically incapable of ooming running 15-16 Mastery and a solid amount of crit. I'd have to spam PWS/PoH for like 5 minutes straight...hell, I pretty much do that on Rhyolith and don't oom. Or even come close. I'm running 20-30% overhealing, stacking DA like crazy, shielding anyone I feel like, and not dipping below 30% mana before my fiend comes back up.

Now, with heavy haste I managed to oom in a terrible ZA with all 3 DPS doing 5-7k. That is, I barely managed to oom. It took a lot of work, and it was on a boss fight that went on for ages and ages, and it involved a whole lot of unnecessary damage, and it was before I installed my Rapture timer, and I wasn't used to the Haste playstyle...but at least it was physically possible.



Your Ryolith attempts, the ones that were 5 mins at least, all show you casting between 20 and 30 shields. In fact you PoH spam that fight (which isn't wrong). Im just stating, that you don't spam bubbles as much as you think you do. If you actually did, you would run out of mana
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79 Goblin Priest
830
Make DA pop a 15% shield on all heals? Is that feasable/OP? I'm not max level yet, so I can't play with tangible numbers. It's not a fix to our Mastery per se, just a way to make it a more valuable stat on direct heals without gimping PW:S.
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90 Human Warrior
10380
Blizzard has stated, more than once, that PW:Shield is meant to be used only sometimes, and PoH is not something that should just be spammed.

Unless I misread this when blizzard posted it multiple times, they didn't say that at all. They said they don't want disc priests thinking they should ONLY be casting shields. They want the focus to be on shielding but still require them to use spells outside of just PW:S.

----

Regarding the number of spells it effects and the amount of throughput it generates, this is where they are referencing the big paladin complaint. When you compare disc priests mastery to paladin mastery, you could say "disc priests gets a bonus from any heal capable of critting" whereas "paladin mastery only gets a bonus from very few spells."

If you look at it a little closer though, despite more spells being able to proc mastery for disc, you could compare the throughput. If you crit 15% of the time and a paladin casts spells that proc mastery 15% of the time, then the throughput would be roughly the same. Obviously the numbers are made up since I don't want to get into PoH or other things that effect it.
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Once again this comes down to thinking one healing class is better than another. Use what you have to the best of your ability.
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86 Draenei Priest
7770
@ Duese

Please, PLEASE

Leave your paladin complaints out of a priest thread.

There is no direct comparison with them. NONE

Make a paladin thread.

If you had bothered to read the rest of my post I outlined the problems affecting our mastery.
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22 Worgen Mage
120
While I understand what's going on re: Disc Mastery, the same could be said of other masteries (e.g., resto druid, holy priest).

Holy priest mastery, for example, affects all of our spells that proc it in exactly the same way. How excitiing. Haste, on the other hand, affects different spells differently. It affects the cast time of cast-time spells, the global cooldown of our instant casts, and how often Renew ticks (but not Lightwell Renew, HW:Sanc or GoPoH). Crit affects all of our spells to the same degree, but Inspiration causes some of these spells to have an additional effect, so even crit is still above mastery in terms of how "interesting" it is as a stat.

A resto druid has a flat increase. Also very boring.

A holy paladin adds a bubble, but is still limited (within reason), and still doesn't proc off some heals, which is unfortunate.

For a disc priest, however, it affects one actual spell, and one proc, which relies on either another spell (PoH) or another secondary stat (crit) to make it useful. To this end, it needs to affect some actual spells. I'd most likely vouch for Penance and Atonement to be included into Mastery in some way (either increased healing done, adding another bubble, or something), and perhaps in some way Barrier (though how to manage this without making it so far above par versus a holy priest than it already is, or completely unbalancing PvP, I do not know).

Now, since crit affects mastery procs, this makes it attractive in some circumstances, which is good. But the problem is that, in and of itself, it (mastery) does not scale with any stat other than intellect. In their own ways, each healers' masteries scale from intellect to a degree, and will always scale with crit in some manner. However, each healers' masteries also scales from more than one spell and a proc, except for discipline's.

Unless I misread this when blizzard posted it multiple times, they didn't say that at all. They said they don't want disc priests thinking they should ONLY be casting shields. They want the focus to be on shielding but still require them to use spells outside of just PW:S.


I'm fairly sure "spells outside of PW:S" equates to "only sometimes [using PW:S]" in fancier words.
Edited by Mesaana on 7/16/2011 9:37 AM PDT
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100 Gnome Priest
8850
What they've said to us is, "Your spec is focused largely on mitigation/absorbs. Your Mastery reflects this! ...Oh by the way, those spells are for emergencies only and are going to be Mana-intensive, so don't cast too many of them."


Please show me when they said this because your lying through your teeth. They don't want PW:S to just be used in emergencies. All they wanted was to make PW:S more in line without our other skills so its not the only choice. They did that very well. My guild has a mastery stacked PW:S healing disc priest and a haste stacked PoH disc priest. They are both very competitive on meters which means blizzard didn't over nerf PW:S and they didn't make it impossible to spam. They simply made it an alternative healing method instead of a necessary one.
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90 Human Warrior
10380
@ Duese

Please, PLEASE

Leave your paladin complaints out of a priest thread.

There is no direct comparison with them. NONE

Make a paladin thread.

If you had bothered to read the rest of my post I outlined the problems affecting our mastery.

Was I complaining about mastery? No. Was I even responding to your post with that comment? No.

When their is a direct comparison made between the paladin mastery and the disc mastery in the OP, I'm usually guessing that it's ok to make a direct comparison about it.

If you don't like what I have to say, then make an actual argument against it. It you can't, don't post crap like that and expect it to mean anything more than a waste of time for a bunch of people.

Regarding my response to your post, I read the whole post but when you make a blanket false statement like you did, I'm going to point out the stupidity in it. I'm all for reading into blizzards cryptic language, but when you bluntly misrepresent what they've said multiple times and use that as the basis of your argument, it's not posting anything smart at all.

I'm fairly sure "spells outside of PW:S" equates to "only sometimes [using PW:S]" in fancier words.
]
No. It doesn't. It's not fancy words. It's not anything but saying "Yes, you have to cast more than just PW:S in order to do your job."
Edited by Duese on 7/16/2011 10:03 AM PDT
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22 Worgen Mage
120
07/16/2011 10:02 AMPosted by Duese
I'm fairly sure "spells outside of PW:S" equates to "only sometimes [using PW:S]" in fancier words.


No. It doesn't. It's not fancy words. It's not anything but saying "Yes, you have to cast more than just PW:S in order to do your job."


Which is exactly the same thing as "only sometimes using PW:S." Sometimes means not all of the time. More than PW:S also means not all of the time.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
4595
Mastery is a consistency stat. While I would not object to a revamp of mastery in order to make it interact a bit more frequently with other spells, it does fill the roll of 'if I cast this, I generally know what it is going to heal for'. I like knowing that my PW:S will mitigate above X amount every time. Crit, while nice, falls under the random and I generally keep my haste high with Borrowed Time.

I can't say I'm a fan of haste and crit heavy builds since I am running roughly 20-25% crit once all of my raid buffs are up and having that consistent stat makes me very comfortable, especially since I frequently use shields to give people more time to move from things (such as Majordomo's cat phase leaps). If my shields healed less on that, it would make it harder on us and make the healing much, much more frantic.

There may be more theoretical HPS in other builds and other builds may be used successfully - and some day, I may try them. However, I value consistency. No other stat provides this too me.


Crit is random. Haste is the epitome of consistency.


Yes, and if you reread my post you would note that I feel I get enough haste from Borrowed Time using my consistent PW:S usage.

I'm aware haste is very consistent, I just don't particularly like it as Disc. I feel there is generally enough shielding that can be done in an encounter, especially two tank encounters, that I can keep my BT up high enough that adding more haste would feel very wasteful.
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85 Goblin Priest
7875
07/16/2011 09:37 AMPosted by Albinosmurfs
What they've said to us is, "Your spec is focused largely on mitigation/absorbs. Your Mastery reflects this! ...Oh by the way, those spells are for emergencies only and are going to be Mana-intensive, so don't cast too many of them."


Please show me when they said this because your lying through your teeth. They don't want PW:S to just be used in emergencies. All they wanted was to make PW:S more in line without our other skills so its not the only choice. They did that very well. My guild has a mastery stacked PW:S healing disc priest and a haste stacked PoH disc priest. They are both very competitive on meters which means blizzard didn't over nerf PW:S and they didn't make it impossible to spam. They simply made it an alternative healing method instead of a necessary one.


That's exactly what we are doing. I'm mastery stacked and the other disc priest has more haste stacking. I went through a ton of gold to try different stat weighting and decided I like the mastery stacking with haste as bottom priority. This was the opposite of most websites/threads/guides, so I perused the disc priests on the top 15 US raids. To my surprise, those fellows are stacking mastery up to their eyeballs (21% mastery 1.5% haste). Whether or not it's for Baleroc is arguable since they are on heroic staghelm/ragnaros currently.

In any case, I tried different stat builds and I'm staying with the one that seems to work the best for me. The synergy between DA and the new healing crit level, made me really like our mastery. It's not just for PW:S.
Edited by Benea on 7/16/2011 11:09 AM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Priest
4595



Yes, and if you reread my post you would note that I feel I get enough haste from Borrowed Time using my consistent PW:S usage.

I'm aware haste is very consistent, I just don't particularly like it as Disc. I feel there is generally enough shielding that can be done in an encounter, especially two tank encounters, that I can keep my BT up high enough that adding more haste would feel very wasteful.


We're using heals with long cast times. There's no such thing as wasted haste. In Wrath, this was less true - PW: S was very easy to GCD cap, and Flash Heal was one of our main tank healing spells.


Yes, I'm aware. We have very different styles with haste. For me, having beyond 18% haste feels very unnecessary (probably a better word than my previous wasteful). I don't do AA/Aton, so I especially don't find haste particularly exciting. I've generally been able to manage my mana well enough that I can use BT for almost every heal.

Especially with the raid buffs getting me up to 23-30% haste with BT. That feels more than sufficient to me. However, I was Holy up until late Tier 11 when I found the lack of a raid CD to be too much of a hindrance for us (we had a terrible healing comp). I never had a lot of haste then there, definitely not as much I have with Disc using BT. I met my 12.5%, actually, reforging out of it providing I specc'd into Darkness. I preferred mastery with Holy as well. When I tried the haste as Holy, I generally bled through my mana faster than I'd like. I liked the HPM bonus from mastery, especially since I didn't have any classes that would generally heal snipe me in the raids (again, we had a terrible healing comp). My mastery could generally make full effect, so I may have a bit of Holy Priest still in me.

I haven't ran into an issue yet in healing thinking 'I wish I had more haste'. Generally my raid doesn't suffer from healing issues, but from lower than what is needed DPS or people messing up a mechanic. If I run into an issue with my heals being too slow, I'll consider upping my haste. This may become more pressing once we get into hardmodes, but I'll reserve judgment on that until I get there.
Edited by Undome on 7/16/2011 11:10 AM PDT
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100 Human Priest
10730
Direct heals: Crit and mastery being equal, a direct heal will, on average, benefit more from crit, by about 160 points. For every 5 mastery over crit, this increases by about 7.5 points. For every 5% of crit over mastery, this decreases by an equal number. It is not possible for mastery to be more useful than crit for direct heals.


that is just wrong crit gets weaker the more you have and mastery gets far stronger the more crit you have.

i love dis spec as is and i would disapprove strongly if they changed our class.
Edited by Youhealme on 7/16/2011 12:05 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Rogue
18410
07/16/2011 12:03 PMPosted by Youhealme
Direct heals: Crit and mastery being equal, a direct heal will, on average, benefit more from crit, by about 160 points. For every 5 mastery over crit, this increases by about 7.5 points. For every 5% of crit over mastery, this decreases by an equal number. It is not possible for mastery to be more useful than crit for direct heals.


that is just wrong crit gets weaker the more you have and mastery gets far stronger the more crit you have.


That's what I said.

I'd suggest you copy and run the script if you don't understand what I did.
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85 Human Paladin
1655
The root of the issue is this -- our Mastery affects our spells in very different ways.

The intent is exactly that. If mastery affected all of your spells the same way, then it would really just be a “+healing” stat, which we already offer (Intellect).


Shaman, druid, paly, and holy priest masteries say hi. ALL are a % increase to ALL heals that is influenced by some other outside proc/circumstance.

IMO disc mastery should be changed to something similar to the new druid mastery.

"Unity: Your absorbs are increased by an additional 0% and casting your absorbs grants you an additional 0% bonus to direct healing for 10 sec. Each point of Mastery increases each bonus by an additional 1.25%."

or the reverse of that.
Edited by Rachelface on 7/16/2011 1:02 PM PDT
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