Disc Priests need a new Mastery

22 Worgen Mage
120
"Unity: Your absorbs are increased by an additional 0% and casting your absorbs grants you an additional 0% bonus to direct healing for 10 sec. Each point of Mastery increases each bonus by an additional 1.25%."

or the reverse of that.


I think this would be a good place to start, as it provides incentive for both absorb and direct heals. However, would Atonement heals be considered "direct" heals? Though, if it were to work in this manner, I'd be more like to say the reverse, since one can't "cast" Divine Aegis.
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90 Goblin Priest
5960
There are a few problem with plugging all of our spells into a sim and generating stat weights based on the theoretical highest HPS possible. Damage patterns in raids vary by encounter, raid size, raid comp, and player skill. The same can be said for mana management/availability.

I shoot for mastery>crit>haste because these stats best support my niche in actual raids and I could care less whether some spreadsheet or cryposter says I'm doing it wrong. My numbers relative to other healers in my raid as well as discs in other raids are fine, and more importantly my character plays the way I need him to.

Another interesting bit to consider is that when a character gears or (to a lesser extent) specs a certain way, the optimal rotations change quite a bit. I lold a bit at the tank healing rotation that has mastery as the worst stat... if you aren't making full use of SOS of course mastery is going to suck.

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91 Blood Elf Paladin
9375
07/15/2011 03:57 PMPosted by Valen
I would not presume to suggest what our mastery should be, but I do look at Holy Paladins with a jealous eye at times


I always do think "grass is greener on the other side" is funny when I see it. Healadins have been complaining about our mastery since it was implemented. Even now that it stacks and lasts 15 seconds, it's still considered our weakest stat.

But the funny thing is, I've thought since they implemented it it would be a better mastery for Disc since Disc is all about shields and the mini-bubbles could be boosted by Disc's other talents.

Honestly, the Healadin mastery should have something to do with our other abilities, but it doesn't, really. It doesn't work with Beacon, which is our "defining" ability, and just doesn't compare with spirit, haste, or even crit (it MIGHT in its new 4.2 form, if crit wasn't also boosted.)


So not sidestepping Disc's issue, I do understand it completely, but look at it from this perspective - your mastery wars with your haste and crit to be valuable depending on what you're trying to do (though for the most part they keep slamming PW:S to make it as useless as possible...nevermind it's Disc's signature ability... <_<) It could be worse. Holy Paladins simply avoid mastery all together because it's almost always a loss for us compared to having ANY OTHER healing stat in its place. We don't even have a spell that we can say our mastery makes powerful like you do. :)
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87 Blood Elf Priest
12610
07/16/2011 01:52 PMPosted by Arthinas
It could be worse. Holy Paladins simply avoid mastery all together because it's almost always a loss for us compared to having ANY OTHER healing stat in its place. We don't even have a spell that we can say our mastery makes powerful like you do. :)

For arguments sake, it's pretty clear that there's a niche for Hpal mastery builds now (see the long thread around here by Zaroua). Which doesn't make it well balanced, but it's at least slightly better than the conventional wisdom from pre-4.2 still believes. It still suffers, like all of Hpal design, from BoL's balancing kerfluffle.

Disc mastery in the OP's well presented argument (with math to support) has to much variance in its value depending on spell selection and as a result is very difficult to really get a grasp on. I agree with that assessment. It scales too well with Pw:S and too poorly with everything else to be a well rounded stat.
Edited by Jajie on 7/16/2011 2:13 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
11935
One of my alts is Disc, and I've been raiding on him off and on, and frankly...

I disagree with you, OP. I think the fact that we DON'T stack one stat is perfectly designed.

Maybe Mastery could be a *little* bit better, but if they buffed it the wrong way, we'd just go back to bubble-blanketing the raid and stacking Mastery, which is a playstyle Blizz has been trying to break all expac.

If mastery affected all of your spells the same way, then it would really just be a “+healing” stat, which we already offer (Intellect).


Oh you mean just like the flat +damage bonuses you gave warlocks? Yay double standards!

They're not flat +damage bonuses. Read the tooltips carefully and you'll notice they're not "Increased damage for all Warlock spells"

For example, Aff Lock Mastery only affects *shadow* dots. Does not affect Shadowbolt or Haunt. Does not affect any of the fire spells (of which, a few are in the rotation).
Edited by Matuk on 7/16/2011 4:48 PM PDT
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22 Worgen Mage
120
07/16/2011 04:49 PMPosted by Subrosian
I don't want to see Blizzard change Disc Mastery because the demands coming from some Priests are players who want Disc to be a hybrid-DPS spec. If you want to DPS, go shadow, the 8K HPS / 5K DPS oddball AA-misplayed specs that are wanting to wreck Disc Mastery would ultimately force the pure Disc healers to reroll... which is just nasty given there's no other healing class (well, Holy Pallys, but only on the tank) who operate heavily in absorb space.


So you would be against mastery affecting actual heals that you should be using, even as Disc, if I'm reading this correctly?
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28 Dwarf Paladin
0
07/16/2011 05:48 PMPosted by Ikissedagírl
Why do so many disc priests avoid the evangelism/archangel talents? There's very few fights with enough constantly heavy damage that you can't prime archangel up and essentially use it on CD to boost your healing by 15%(same strength as tree of life). I mainly run 10mans on my priest so I don't have the luxury of 5-6 other healers to cover for me, and I still easily find the time to smite some, or HF on cd, to prime up AA for the heavy damage phases.


I've used both atonement and SoS specs in firelands. I like both, except on rag. Atonement doesn't hit anyone thanks to his massive hitbox. Fix please! And yes I know you can still use it just for AA but it's still dumb that atonement doesn't function on larger bosses.
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1 Human Paladin
0
One of my alts is Disc, and I've been raiding on him off and on, and frankly...

I disagree with you, OP. I think the fact that we DON'T stack one stat is perfectly designed.

Grats on completely misunderstanding the issue.

Maybe if your priest were your main, the point wouldn't have gone soaring over your head.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
6700
Here's my shot at an improved Discipline mastery: "Your healing spells have an X% chance to place a shield on the target for 50% of the amount healed, and your Power Word: Shield absorbs X% more damage." Sort of an absorption version of Elemental Overload, and it bears much the same relation to Illuminated Healing that Critical Block does to Divine Bulwark. The scaling per point would have to be tuned so it's slightly worse for pure throughput on direct heals than crit is, since it's less spiky (x1.5 instead of x2.6) and also affects PW:S.

07/15/2011 05:28 PMPosted by Zarhym
If mastery affected all of your spells the same way, then it would really just be a “+healing” stat, which we already offer (Intellect). Crit and haste don’t affect all your spells the same way, and we think it’s a more interesting design if mastery behaves the same way.

Crit and haste do different things from each other, but the behavior of each stat is relatively consistent across various spells. Haste makes your casts and GCD go faster; crit gives you a chance to do extra healing each time you heal. Some spells may get somewhat more or less benefit from one stat or the other (HoTs get extra ticks, some talents proc from critical hits), but with few exceptions every spell gets the basic benefit of both stats. A long series of changes (to HoTs, to passive haste/GCD talents, to crit multipliers and crit-based procs) has made haste and crit reasonably close together in overall throughput for most healing spells/specs without sacrificing the very different feels that each stat has.

Discipline's mastery, on the other hand, has an extremely inconsistent effect across spells. It does barely anything for direct heals, is moderately useful (only about half as good as crit or haste) for Prayer of Healing, and is excellent for Power Word: Shield.

Haste makes all your heals faster; crit makes all your heals bigger on average but spikier. Disc's mastery makes one spell (PW:S) much bigger and has a small effect (much less than crit) on Divine Aegis.

07/15/2011 05:28 PMPosted by Zarhym
It is possible to go too far of course. If mastery doesn’t affect enough of your entire healing package (either in terms of number of spells or raw output), then it just becomes a weak stat. Alternatively, it can lead classes, and healers in particular, to neglect spells that are weak because mastery doesn’t boost them.

You're right that this is particularly a problem for healers. Damage dealers with masteries that only affect a few spells tend to already be using those spells as much as they can (e.g. frost mages). Healer spell selection is determined not by rotational constraints but by what tool is right for the job, so unless heals scale reasonably similarly there is the risk that some spell will never be the right choice even in its former niche.
Edited by Quintessence on 7/16/2011 6:37 PM PDT
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100 Gnome Priest
8850
07/16/2011 05:23 PMPosted by Sausagefan
It's the fact that bubble spam is dead


Bubble spam is far from dead. Its a very effective way to play disc. Disc mastery is great, any buff would lead to more problems than solutions.
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85 Tauren Druid
5605
A nice fix to this would be to give one casted spell a 100% chance to proc an absorb shield, Disc needs another Absorb in their toolbox to really solidify their position as a damage prevention healer, which is a niche they should fill.

Something along these lines was actually addressed in the QA i believe.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
TG
6760
ya there should be a spell thats like an AoE heal and procs shields on people... maybe heal like 5 people so long as theyre in the same party.

seriously tho I like disc priest stats as they are now, some part of me has always wanted stacking crit to be a viable option as a healer...
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1 Tauren Warrior
0
you are right bro
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100 Night Elf Rogue
18695
One of my alts is Disc, and I've been raiding on him off and on, and frankly...

I disagree with you, OP. I think the fact that we DON'T stack one stat is perfectly designed.

Maybe Mastery could be a *little* bit better, but if they buffed it the wrong way, we'd just go back to bubble-blanketing the raid and stacking Mastery, which is a playstyle Blizz has been trying to break all expac.


They're not flat +damage bonuses. Read the tooltips carefully and you'll notice they're not "Increased damage for all Warlock spells"

For example, Aff Lock Mastery only affects *shadow* dots. Does not affect Shadowbolt or Haunt. Does not affect any of the fire spells (of which, a few are in the rotation).


But that's not the proposal at all. It's the fact that bubble spam is dead that makes our mastery problematic. Even somewhat vigorous shield usage is problematic after the Mana Tide and Innervate nerfs.


Bubble spam is dead, sure, but is F1 bubble F2 bubble F3 bubble F4 bubble F5 bubble really all that compelling?

Or in a raid setting...
for (X=1; X<=25; X++)
cast [@raidX] Power Word: Shield
end

Is the lack of that kind of gameplay what you're calling problematic?



In some ways, I long for the days of classic or BC healing. Mana mattered. There wasn't a healing "rotation", per se, just the right heal for the job. You weren't encouraged to cast a "bad" heal to make a "good" heal better. (See: Serendipity.) Nowadays there's almost too much interaction between all the different spells a healer has that it doesn't feel so much like "using the right heal for the job" as it feels like "I have a DPS rotation, but my numbers are green".
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100 Gnome Priest
8850
Really? I'd like to see a log where you're actually able to sustain serious usage of PW: S - the Mana Tide and Innervate nerfs gutted our ability to sustain this.

Note: Dedicated tank healing with shielding on Weakened Soul cooldown + occasional patch shielding is NOT shield spam.



Sorry i'm not about to post my guilds logs on wow forums. I can assure you that PW:S spam is still a very viable way to raid especially 25's. Its not hard to get 18k+ hps in firelands bosses with it.
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