Disc Priests need a new Mastery

100 Blood Elf Paladin
12815
The problem is that the playstyle that actually benefits from mastery has become gutted due to mana constraints. Imagine if the holy pally mastery only benefitted Holy Radiance and Light of Dawn, but you couldn't use these spells heavily due to mana constraints. And to begin with, the "playstyle" of shield spam was horrible anyways. Disc mastery should be one that impacts all of our spells in a significant but not overpowered way, and doesn't encourage us to ignore some or all of our spells.


Said playstyle being copious use of PW:S? If so, I agree, that would be somewhat boring.

I get into a fair amount of arguments with some paladins regarding some of our issues, and that mostly stems from the fact that I view things in a different way. So, in this case:

PW:S - I view this as a tool, and like any tool, it's very good if used properly, and not good if used improperly. In my view, the uses for said shields are;

1) On the tank that is taking damage, preferrably well-timed, but I suppose there really isn't anything wrong with having close to 100% uptime (outside of Weakened Soul) on it.

2) As an emergency buffer for a raid member to cover the (at least two) people that dropped the ball - namely, the one who took the damage, and the healer(s) who should have taken care of it.

3) Judicious use if mechanics require, example being P2 Nefarian.

Using it outside of those three situations seems like a poor use of mana. Again, looking for knowlege, so maybe I am wrong on that. Outside of those situations, wouldn't any number of other abilities be the better choice in most cases?

So, we come back to my first question - is it correct that Mastery = tank healing, and Crit/Haste = raid healing?

If so, Mastery affects Aegis, does it not? So if you find yourself able to cast PoH during low tank damage periods, does it not (potentially) provide some benefit? Does disc Mastery affect PoM as well?

Thanks for any answers - this thread has been good so far.

Riôt
Edited by Riôt on 7/17/2011 4:57 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Priest
10260
No one should be wanting to go back to PWS spam simply to maximise the benefit to our mastery. It's a horrible playstyle, it opens up huge balancing and encounter design issues, and it's simply not fun.

If our mastery design encourages PWS spam while every other factor is pushing the other way, it's mastery that needs to give way.
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85 Troll Priest
12725
07/16/2011 09:37 AMPosted by Albinosmurfs
What they've said to us is, "Your spec is focused largely on mitigation/absorbs. Your Mastery reflects this! ...Oh by the way, those spells are for emergencies only and are going to be Mana-intensive, so don't cast too many of them."


Please show me when they said this because your lying through your teeth. They don't want PW:S to just be used in emergencies. All they wanted was to make PW:S more in line without our other skills so its not the only choice. They did that very well. My guild has a mastery stacked PW:S healing disc priest and a haste stacked PoH disc priest. They are both very competitive on meters which means blizzard didn't over nerf PW:S and they didn't make it impossible to spam. They simply made it an alternative healing method instead of a necessary one.


First off, I'm not a liar so don't call me that.
Secondly, it's not my job to fetch blue posts for you, you're capable of reading them yourself.

edit: Adding in:

Actually, I'm feeling generous...so how about this:

http://www.wowblues.com/us/save-power-word-shield-25626107959.html

To wit:

by Ghostcrawler | 04/07/2010 21:12:18
Ghostcrawler

Discipline will still use PW:Shield a lot, but you will probably see less "pre-healing" across the board, because it won't be mana efficient. PW:Shield will probably go back to being more of an emergency button and less of the survivability buff it gets treated as today.

In addition to shielding, Disc will continue to cast Penance a lot, and will probably use Heal and Greater Heal. Flash Heal overlaps in niche a lot with both PW:Shield and Penance, so it may be the least used.


-and-

Pre-shielding when you know big damage is on the way for select targets is fine. Trying to keep shields up on the entire raid is a strategy that we think A) is too good, and B) isn't fun. I think a lot of the players who think it is fun feel that way because it's overpowered, not because it's a really engaging activity. When your decision making consists of cycling through targets and casting PW:S on any target without Weakened Soul, then you aren't really responding to the encounter -- you're acting like a glorified macro. Now maybe some of you will argue that you take a lot more into consideration before executing a pre-heal, but the fact is that Disc priests can be unbelievably effective without doing so.


You're welcome.

/end Edit


Anyway, back on topic, where we belong...

Seems to me that if they want us using more abilities, and they want Mastery to be more appealing...bingo. Make Mastery work with more abilities. They wanted to make Crit more appealing, and look at the reaction...players are looking into it more.
If they want a stat to be more desirable, then make it do more. Simple logic for simple game design.
Edited by Audience on 7/17/2011 6:47 PM PDT
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85 Troll Priest
12725
Would this make disc happy?

Mastery increases the absorb of DA and PWS by X% and increases your chance to proc DA on non critical spells by Y%

I think that sounds more interesting and while it does introduce more RNG into your life that may be just what you need/asked for.

And people wonder why I think Tauren Paladins are awesome. ;)

Yes, that's a good idea and one I could see Blizzard getting behind (they do love their RNG, after all).
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90 Tauren Paladin
9640
Would this make disc happy?

Mastery increases the absorb of DA and PWS by X% and increases your chance to proc DA on non critical spells by Y%

I think that sounds more interesting and while it does introduce more RNG into your life that may be just what you need/asked for.


I really think I am on to something here... or have I been a pally to long (stopped playing the priest 6 months ago). Any other input on this? It is always best to provide a resolution to the problem you present and I feel that this is an easy to balance option that will make the stat much more desirable. It shouldn't entirely gut any one play style and all the ways i have played a priest in the past i can see a benefit from this change.
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85 Undead Warlock
0
The root of the issue is this -- our Mastery affects our spells in very different ways.

The intent is exactly that. If mastery affected all of your spells the same way, then it would really just be a “+healing” stat, which we already offer (Intellect). Crit and haste don’t affect all your spells the same way, and we think it’s a more interesting design if mastery behaves the same way. It is possible to go too far of course. If mastery doesn’t affect enough of your entire healing package (either in terms of number of spells or raw output), then it just becomes a weak stat. Alternatively, it can lead classes, and healers in particular, to neglect spells that are weak because mastery doesn’t boost them.


I think a big part of the problem is that a secondary stat should always feel useful across the board, even if not as theoretically strong as other stats.

Haste may not be as useful to a spec that has less hardcasts, but you still have the consolation of it being useful in reducing GCD's. This is an important concept: Optimal benefit, consolation benefit. Crit may not be a power house for affliction locks in sims/theory, but it's still benefecial across the board even when it's not the strongest secondary stat.

Mastery on the other hand, requires that it improve the spells it affects so much to make up for how it doesn't affect other spells, or worse, that you don't have many options outside the spells/abilities that do work with mastery.

Example; I geared my disc priest in nothing but Spirit/Mastery gear during the heroic periods, and while I was able to keep up with other healers in terms of charts and numbers, it was heavily contextualized and inflexible. Skada shows a bar as long as the other healers, but it's almost gimmicky. I could pre-shield the entire raid and regen enough mana to make bubble spam viable, and that was about it. I was effectively locked into that mode of play, and it locked them into filling up the bars after I safetied the raid off.

So yeah, people have choices, but one is obviously really inflexible and difficult to utilize outside of very specific contexts.

In a 25-man triage model where disc got to stop the bleeding, holy stitched them up, and resto druids and shamans took care of them in the ICU, it worked. Sadly, that context exists eight to twelve hours a week, and all the other time spent healing is like pulling teeth because penance, heal, flash heal, and renew all blow richard for skittles. In situations where I was the only healer, seven richards for skittles.
Edited by Hils on 7/17/2011 9:08 PM PDT
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1 Draenei Mage
0
why not give Penance some kind of effect from mastery?
Its a disc only spell & you almost always use it off cd. Something beneficial for penance from mastery would put it in good stead
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12825
Would this make disc happy?

Mastery increases the absorb of DA and PWS by X% and increases your chance to proc DA on non critical spells by Y%

I think that sounds more interesting and while it does introduce more RNG into your life that may be just what you need/asked for.

This would actually be really cool, if the chance were big enough to change the stat weighting. Unfortunately, without any other changes, it would end up being a major single-target healing buff (just from the base Mastery points, before we even itemized for it), and...well, let's just say we don't need any help in that department.

I suppose you could reduce the scaling of PWS with Mastery to compensate.
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86 Troll Priest
3850
Mastery is a consistency stat. While I would not object to a revamp of mastery in order to make it interact a bit more frequently with other spells, it does fill the roll of 'if I cast this, I generally know what it is going to heal for'. I like knowing that my PW:S will mitigate above X amount every time. Crit, while nice, falls under the random and I generally keep my haste high with Borrowed Time.

I can't say I'm a fan of haste and crit heavy builds since I am running roughly 20-25% crit once all of my raid buffs are up and having that consistent stat makes me very comfortable, especially since I frequently use shields to give people more time to move from things (such as Majordomo's cat phase leaps). If my shields healed less on that, it would make it harder on us and make the healing much, much more frantic.

There may be more theoretical HPS in other builds and other builds may be used successfully - and some day, I may try them. However, I value consistency. No other stat provides this too me.


Crit is random. Haste is the epitome of consistency.


but how often is haste being used? does nothing for your instant cast spells & if you have control of the fight you shouldnt need it all the time...i always thought disc was less about being reactive than the other healing classes, by stacking haste you're almost building to deal with the worst, with high mastery i think you can prevent a good amount of that damage & when you need a haste boost you have one, or two if you have berserk...sorry, none of our secondary stats are useful 100% of the time...
Edited by Heliosmean on 7/18/2011 10:40 AM PDT
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32 Gnome Mage
0
try something like going up on H 10 Beth and find out that you need to stack crit to try to stop bad streaks of 4 non-crit which is a tank gib

the stat problem isn't mastery it is what happens when you don't crit

it is difficult to repeat results when a non-crit is insufficient and you crit for a lay on hands
Edited by Jancy on 7/18/2011 11:21 AM PDT
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1 Tauren Druid
0
I disagree, I don't think Haste is always the best choice.

Haste is only slightly better than Crit in terms of throughput, but requires more spirit to maintain. This makes a healthy level of these 3 stats important. (while Mastery, even with a heavy crit build, is never prioritized).

Enough spirit to keep up with your mana consumption
Enough Haste to even out your healing
then a healthy dose of Crit to bump your healing without needing excessive regen.

In every stat comparison I have seen for a normal disc healing rotation, Mastery is to be avoided.
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86 Troll Priest
3850


but how often is haste being used? does nothing for your instant cast spells & if you have control of the fight you shouldnt need it all the time...i always thought disc was less about being reactive than the other healing classes, by stacking haste you're almost building to deal with the worst, with high mastery i think you can prevent a good amount of that damage & when you need a haste boost you have one, or two if you have berserk...sorry, none of our secondary stats are useful 100% of the time...


Haste is, in fact, being used all the time. It even benefits shield spam up to the GCD.


except everytime you cast pw:s, PoM, PS, dispel & barrier & when you dont need to pump out heals fast...haste is doing absolutely nothing for you some of the time...
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85 Gnome Rogue
4070
07/15/2011 05:28 PMPosted by Zarhym
The root of the issue is this -- our Mastery affects our spells in very different ways.

The intent is exactly that. If mastery affected all of your spells the same way, then it would really just be a “+healing” stat, which we already offer (Intellect). Crit and haste don’t affect all your spells the same way, and we think it’s a more interesting design if mastery behaves the same way. It is possible to go too far of course. If mastery doesn’t affect enough of your entire healing package (either in terms of number of spells or raw output), then it just becomes a weak stat. Alternatively, it can lead classes, and healers in particular, to neglect spells that are weak because mastery doesn’t boost them.


Wow Zarhym, the line I've bolded gets you a huge /LOL, why? Resto Druid Mastery. Need I say more?
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Haste is, in fact, being used all the time. It even benefits shield spam up to the GCD.


except everytime you cast pw:s, PoM, PS, dispel & barrier & when you dont need to pump out heals fast...haste is doing absolutely nothing for you some of the time...


^Obviously doesn't know how instant casts and haste interact with the GCD.

Also, what will mastery and crit do for you while casting PS, Dispel and barrier? and when you dont need healing? :/
Edited by Glantz on 7/18/2011 1:51 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
3860
07/15/2011 06:20 PMPosted by Seebach
The intent is exactly that. If mastery affected all of your spells the same way, then it would really just be a “+healing” stat, which we already offer (Intellect)


Druid Mastery says hi.


The druid mastery is dynamic in that its something we don't HAVE to stack to increase effectiveness.
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89 Undead Priest
6365
Holy Priest's mastery also effects all healing spells the same way.

My idea for Disco? Mastery be involved with Atonement healing.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12825
07/18/2011 02:38 PMPosted by Darthsiddeus
Holy Priest's mastery also effects all healing spells the same way.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't touch Renew, Lightwell Renew, or Glyph of PoH. (I seem to remember there was a fourth but it was something negligible)
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