Disc Priests need a new Mastery

86 Draenei Priest
7770
The <insert class/spec here> mastery is dynamic in that its something we don't HAVE to stack to increase effectiveness.


Now everyone can make their own!
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90 Night Elf Priest
17620
This may seem sort of unrelated, but reading this makes me wonder about something re: Mastery. Our 10 man group is about to start work on Heroic Baleroc, and I will be one of the two healers. Every Priest on several top parses I've seen for Heroic 10 man Baleroc has stacked Mastery. Considering that Vital Flame scales with both shields and aegises but Haste is said to scale the best for tank healing, is the former the reason for Mastery becoming hands down the best stat for H Baleroc? Or do these Priests realize something that I don't?
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85 Blood Elf Priest
2860
07/15/2011 05:28 PMPosted by Zarhym
The root of the issue is this -- our Mastery affects our spells in very different ways.

The intent is exactly that. If mastery affected all of your spells the same way, then it would really just be a “+healing” stat, which we already offer (Intellect). Crit and haste don’t affect all your spells the same way, and we think it’s a more interesting design if mastery behaves the same way. It is possible to go too far of course. If mastery doesn’t affect enough of your entire healing package (either in terms of number of spells or raw output), then it just becomes a weak stat. Alternatively, it can lead classes, and healers in particular, to neglect spells that are weak because mastery doesn’t boost them.


I'm sorry, but really? Obviously Druids are above this kind of ideology, in regards to their mastery. And paladins too, in like a 50-50 sort of way.
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85 Tauren Warrior
6485
I did a comparison of how much of my overall healing is affected by Disc mastery. Looking at my recount it contributes roughly to 10-14% of my total healing.

I respecced to Holy to see how much that HoT mastery heal contributes. Turns out it heals for roughly 10-14% of my total healing too.

When I look at it from that perspective I don't think mastery is so bad.
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85 Gnome Priest
5785
First off, I'm not a liar so don't call me that.
Secondly, it's not my job to fetch blue posts for you, you're capable of reading them yourself.


07/17/2011 05:13 PMPosted by Audience
Oh by the way, those spells are for emergencies only


07/17/2011 05:13 PMPosted by Audience
PW:Shield will probably go back to being more of an emergency button


When you change "more of" to "only" your changing the meaning of the blue post. Blizzard has never said PW:S is only an emergency skill, so me calling your false statement a lie is justified.
It is used more often as an emergency skill but in raids its a very effective form of healing.

I'm sorry, but really? Obviously Druids are above this kind of ideology, in regards to their mastery. And paladins too, in like a 50-50 sort of way.


Druid mastery does follow the ideology. The mastery requires druids to use direct heals every 10seconds. Its not hard to cast a direct heal that often but it doesn't have 100% up time. It doesn't effect every skill the same way unless every druid has 100% uptime on it...

Holy Paladin Mastery does not affect every skill equally. In a 50-50 way doesn't even make sense....
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85 Undead Warlock
7470
At times, I feel that Divine Aegis should be the new Disc mastery for devs to tinker with, and just replace DA in the talent tree with some boring must-have numbers talent.

It'd also help to alleviate balancing discrepancies between PvE and PvP as mastery on PvP gear is so finite and controllable.
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85 Troll Priest
12725
First off, I'm not a liar so don't call me that.
Secondly, it's not my job to fetch blue posts for you, you're capable of reading them yourself.


07/17/2011 05:13 PMPosted by Audience
Oh by the way, those spells are for emergencies only


07/17/2011 05:13 PMPosted by Audience
PW:Shield will probably go back to being more of an emergency button


When you change "more of" to "only" your changing the meaning of the blue post. Blizzard has never said PW:S is only an emergency skill, so me calling your false statement a lie is justified.
It is used more often as an emergency skill but in raids its a very effective form of healing.


You didn't even read the link or the quote, did you? That's about what I expected.

I didn't change anything; That quote came straight from the mouth - or should I say the fingertips - of your boy Greg. You want to call someone a liar, how about you go call him one. Maybe he'll give a damn.

You said Blizzard never said something. I said they did, and provided a link and a direct quote - since apparently, a Search before insulting someone is beneath you; For the record I don't agree with the "emergency button" ideal either. Nor do a lot of Priests. I'm just telling you (accurately, I might add) what they said.

You disagree with it, take it up with them. Don't blame me for their explanations.
Or your inability to read them.
Edited by Audience on 7/20/2011 11:18 AM PDT
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11 Tauren Druid
80
It seems like the blue didn't even read your entire post; especially he after mentioning this:

07/15/2011 05:28 PMPosted by Zarhym
It is possible to go too far of course. If mastery doesn’t affect enough of your entire healing package (either in terms of number of spells or raw output), then it just becomes a weak stat.


As others have mentioned, the blue also seemed out of touch, since for a few specs/classes Mastery does nearly function as +Healing/Damage.

I think an influencing problem with the Disc Mastery (not mentioned by the Blue) is that it has to be significantly different from the Holy Mastery. The developers want the masteries to be different, but that's hard to do while keeping the Disc Mastery useful for all spells.

Honestly, I think the Disc Talent spec, along with the mastery need a significant amount of work for the issue to be solved, which we probably won't be see until the next expansion.

Based on what the blue said, they're not going to admit it is a problem, but rather blame us for not understanding what mastery is 'supposed to be' (which it's clearly not for some specs).
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85 Blood Elf Priest
2860

I'm sorry, but really? Obviously Druids are above this kind of ideology, in regards to their mastery. And paladins too, in like a 50-50 sort of way.


Druid mastery does follow the ideology. The mastery requires druids to use direct heals every 10seconds. Its not hard to cast a direct heal that often but it doesn't have 100% up time. It doesn't effect every skill the same way unless every druid has 100% uptime on it...

Holy Paladin Mastery does not affect every skill equally. In a 50-50 way doesn't even make sense....


When I heal on my druid I'm usually throwing out enough direct heals often enough that its pretty darn easy to keep that buff up. In some other posts in this forum there's people measuring their own uptime at somewhere around 80% (which is pretty significant).

And with the Paladin statement, I was referring to the fact that it affects every one of their targeted direct heals (ie not Beacon or HR or Flashlight). So that means it does affect Flash, Holy Light, Divine Light, WoG, and Shock. Or in other words, around half (or 50%) of their overall heals (depending on the particular fight and how the group is interacting, of course).
Edited by Arindrys on 7/20/2011 3:45 PM PDT
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1 Human Warlock
0
@OP I liked your post. Disc priests need far more buffs they're too weak. :(
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90 Blood Elf Priest
14380
07/15/2011 06:20 PMPosted by Seebach
Druid Mastery says hi.
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85 Human Paladin
2550
< what mastery? we have the least used mastery off all the healers. y not change it. instead of a sheild mate it a hot. or (to better help us in raids) what not make the mastery spread the heal. like so much % per mastery point gets spread to the group. i know the mastery is kind of a work in progress and for the most part you havent done a bad job but healadins need help. o and pants. healadins need pants to.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9155
< what mastery? we have the least used mastery off all the healers. y not change it. instead of a sheild mate it a hot. or (to better help us in raids) what not make the mastery spread the heal. like so much % per mastery point gets spread to the group. i know the mastery is kind of a work in progress and for the most part you havent done a bad job but healadins need help. o and pants. healadins need pants to.


Actually, our mastery is heavily debated. There are tons of advocates for the traditional haste maxing, at the expense of everything else. There are a few advocates of mastery maxing, though, and they make a convincing argument. With either side, though, it comes down to play style. As always, you have to decide what's best for you.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
7455
My gearing strategy is Int >>> Mastery > Crit/Spirit > Haste.

I raid 25 mans. When you are part of a healing team with several members, spreadsheet HPS isn't as important as bringing something unique to the table. What I bring to the table is the ability to prevent spike damage, and so I gear towards that goal.

Mastery stacking leads to some absurd numbers on PW:S, and you don't have to be shield spamming to see a benefit from that. On Baleroc for example, I'm able to completely absorb the Decimating Strikes on our OT.

Crit and Spirit I value about the same, and try to keep a balance of both. This tier, the increase in mana pools and the abundance of Disc regen effects that work off +X% of mana pool have led me to swap in more Spirit-less gear.

Haste I value the lowest for a few reasons. For starters, my low spirit gearing makes me value the HPM benefits of crit slightly higher. Also, and this is purely anecdotal, but I don't feel like haste matters much. Compared to the healing I did in Wrath (I've been raiding as Disc since the pre-Wrath 3.0 patch hit) damage is coming in at a much slower pace. With raid buffs I'm a only a little over 8% haste (compared to the 35%+ I was hitting in ICC), and even my slow GH and PoH casts don't feel late. When a bit more speed is required, I have Borrowed Time and Power Infusion to fall back on. Based on my experiences thus far, I value the opportunity to land a bigger heal and proc DA more than response time.
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87 Blood Elf Priest
12610
Why would someone who can use the search feature to dig up a 3 week only thread not be able to notice that it's a three week old thread?

Maybe we need He-Man to deal with the legions of Necromancers.
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85 Tauren Priest
3455
more crit = higher value of mastery

people who go to EJ are just yea....

every priest has a different roll in a raid example why i still go mastery is because our healing comp is pally druid disc priest 10 man.
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07/15/2011 05:28 PMPosted by Zarhym
The intent is exactly that. If mastery affected all of your spells the same way, then it would really just be a “+healing” stat, which we already offer (Intellect). Crit and haste don’t affect all your spells the same way, and we think it’s a more interesting design if mastery behaves the same way. It is possible to go too far of course. If mastery doesn’t affect enough of your entire healing package (either in terms of number of spells or raw output), then it just becomes a weak stat. Alternatively, it can lead classes, and healers in particular, to neglect spells that are weak because mastery doesn’t boost them.


Crit and Haste are both always on, though. Crit certainly is a random throughput stat, but it is equally random across all spells. Haste is also equal across all spells in its expected effect. Mastery is odd as Disc because it's either amazing (shields, PoH) or entirely reliant on another secondary stat just to have a chance of being relevant. The Resto Druid and Holy Priest Mastery effects suffer from no such inconsistencies, though.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
7455
Why would someone who can use the search feature to dig up a 3 week only thread not be able to notice that it's a three week old thread?

Maybe we need He-Man to deal with the legions of Necromancers.


Maybe because I had something to add to the discussion, and the topic is still relevant.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
3270
08/15/2011 08:36 AMPosted by Tonyaharding
Maybe because I had something to add to the discussion, and the topic is still relevant.


Nope. On Blizzard forums if something isn't on the front page, the topic isn't relevant anymore. Oddly enough, the people that get their panties in a twist about "thread necros" are often the same people that are lightning quick to jump on a post and say "try using the search feature." I guess the intent is to use the search feature, but not to contribute to the discussion.

Why do so many disc priests avoid the evangelism/archangel talents? There's very few fights with enough constantly heavy damage that you can't prime archangel up and essentially use it on CD to boost your healing by 15%(same strength as tree of life). I mainly run 10mans on my priest so I don't have the luxury of 5-6 other healers to cover for me, and I still easily find the time to smite some, or HF on cd, to prime up AA for the heavy damage phases.

*Edit, and quite frankly I feel like disc is by far the most complex/fun healer to play partly because of AA. No other healer has +15% heals on demand every 30 seconds.


The answer to the first question is because a lot of people looking at spreadsheets have decided that since Atonement isn't viable in vacuum sim-healing, the spec isn't viable at all. Others have tried it out and just don't like the feel of it, which is a far more valid argument against its use, because let's face it, if you can't find a groove and don't feel comfortable using something, it's not worth the potential increased healing capability because you'll end up not making the most of it.

Honestly, I also fail to see how people don't see the value in Atonement spec besides just using Archangel. When you look at everything that contributes to the potency of Atonement...

    Extra smite damage against targets afflicted by Holy Fire (from gyph)
    Extra smite damage which means bigger heal (from Twin Discipline)
    Extra healing on top of that boost from Empowered Healing
    Extra healing if you've used Flash Heal, Heal, GHeal or Penance on your target (from Grace)
    Extra healing if your AA wings are up
    All that is combined with the reduced mana cost of HF/Smite while running with 5 stacks of Evangelism and that the heals proc DA


I do wish our Mastery had a little more oomph to it, but I think Blizz probably sees the preventative nature of PW:S and DA as a little more difficult to balance than a standard reactive heal because of how efficient it is. If you give someone a large heal, portions of that might be wasted by over healing and that's the built in balance there - the mana efficiency piece. Since the shielding can't over heal, they've got to look at it differently and that I think is why it's based on crits (other than PoH).

I can see the potential synergy between crit and mastery, but I don't think you'll ever get healers to commit to using crit just because of the nature of healing.

Part of the solution might be to add another controlled shield to our arsenal (a casted shield, comes to mind) and/or to have mastery affect PW:B either through an initial absorption amount, or by increasing the damage reduction by some % based on Mastery.
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