Topic Great PvE, Now Give PvP Some Lovin'!
I heard about the epic battle back in the day that lasted entire days. I've only seen the Ice lord summoned once in one of my bgs, aerial assault by alliance once, and saw the big frosty tree dude summoned once in my room mate's level 60-something BG.
I'd like to be able to actually use all those nifty things in there before running out of reinforcements.
On the subject of rewards from a revamped classic AV:
If classic AV were ever to be relaunched, I would expect Blizz would just fold the existing honor system into it. Here's my idea for how to reward honor (feel free to agree/disagree, just throwing it out there):
HKs offer honor without diminishing returns. Capturing and defending objectives offer honor. Item turnins offer honor. The honor from turnins should be tuned so that if one person stays in the fight and a second person runs looted turnins back to the NPC, they get about the same honor.
At a regular time interval (say 30min) award bonus honor to each team based on how many objectives have changed hands, HKs have been accumulated, and turnins have been made (someone else can figure out exact numbers). At this time the "exit queue" that has been proposed opens up and those that need to leave do not leave empty handed.
At the end of the game, the winning team gets an additional chunk of bonus honor. This additional amount should be in proportion to how long they've been there or how much they've contributed to the win. Let's say there's a pile of 1000 honor for a win that took 3 hours. Someone who was there for all 3 hours actively participating might expect to pocket 1000 "win honor." Someone who joined halfway through might expect to pocket 500 extra at the end, etc. And maybe that maximum pile isn't the same for every win. Perhaps it grows as more objectives change hands, to scale up with game length?
And the losing team? No extra for you. You lost. Play better next time. :)
Anyway, my thoughts on rewards.
The story of AV is the story of WoW.
Once you fought uphill, in the snow BOTH ways, with 39 other people beside you to CRUSH the enemy, see them driven before you and hear the lamentaion of thier noobs. It was a deep, detailed and immersive experience backed up by strong lore, faction pride, cooperation, communication and large dose of patience.
Now its a flat sprint to the end so you can afk till its time to finish. The lore is forgotten, people spend more time trolling thier own faction then supporting it, the only communication is abuse, and people have no patience for anything that takes longer than 10mins.
Both the above hold true in AV, and in WoW in general.
I fully support a return to Old AV.
and I look forward to staining the snows red with the blood of any that would defile the grave of Durotan, father of Go'el, 1st Warchief of the Frostwolfs and grandfather to the Horde.
85 Human Death Knight
Yet another post in support. Additionally, I have a few ideas of my own on tweaks to slow the movement down in order to bring players into more direct conflict. As someone who has never cared about honor points and has not yet fought in a rated battleground, I'll leave distribution concepts to everyone else and focus on the gameplay.
As of now, each "bunker" really isn't. We've been over this time and again regarding the NPCs, but in all honesty they aren't the only flaw. The archers, excluding those covering the Tol Barad bridge, are worthless enough that towers can be fully ignored with no penalty except the Warmaster attached to it helping the General against the incoming attack force. The rate and fields of fire for those archers are also pathetic enough that for a large enough strike force maybe only six people will know they're being shot. A change in NPCs that would address both of these would be the establishment of a solid defensive line outside of each bunker. This would be manned by an increased number of archers, who would take reduced ranged damage and receive sustained high-power healing from Lightwells/Healing Wards maintained by the bunker's occupants - now an officer tied to the defenses as well as several melee fighters and maybe a healer NPC (debatable). There would, of course, be gaps in the defenses that a small team could slip through to attack graveyards, and a sufficiently determined blitz could punch the defenders out, but either approach would stall an advance long enough for both sides to get forces to the fight. The tower guards would probably need a full five-man team to eliminate, but the death of the lieutenant and the subsequent capture of the flag would respectively deactivate the healing stations and destroy the cover granted to the stonewalling NPCs, who are now just targets to be flattened. The Captains would have similar arrangements along with elite guards to keep them combat-balanced (as has been discussed elsewhere).
To limit the required running for infantry/cavalry/airstrike requisitions, reagents could be turned in to any command post for full effect, giving players yet another reason to maintain their bunkers and forts. The NPCs back at the headquarters would be there to provide last-ditch access to attack orders that could reverse a failing situation, and even the Generals would be able to order point-blank charges (the length of the courtyard, maybe) by an equivalent force of their personal guard (1/3 the number of elite soldiers, for example), although larger forces would be unavailable that close to the command center. This would allow players to use their looted items at any point rather than needing to backtrack to the headquarters (even with the trinket, that implies going back out afterwards). The sole exception to this is the Lok'Holar/Ivus summon, which would function as it always has.
Some effect would need to be added to the Field of Strife to let it live up to its name. Either weighted land-mines (detonated by mounted players only) or some sort of "Suppressor Field" effect that reduces maximum movement speed to 100% could be implemented to prevent players from simply riding away from anyone who wants a fight. A slight change in geography might also help by funneling attack forces through one another rather than letting them ride past literally without seeing one another. Any such effect or change would still permit fast movement for fairly large sections of the stage, just not the area where the two teams would meet at the beginning of the game.
The goal here is to reduce the speed at which forces can move, allowing the other team to intervene without completely stopping the action (a good team could filter through gaps in the defenses without ever hitting a single bunker, for example, or at least send a stealth force past to hit two or three bunkers simultaneously). In my opinion, if the two armies clash in the Field of Strife at the beginning, they will not just need but want to stay stuck in as they batter one another across the map, storming defensive bastions in the face of significant opposition that has never actually laid off since the first meeting two minutes in. Even the first suggestion of my post, the one about siege lines at each bunker, would be optional if the two forces had to go through one another early on. Fel, even with the existing set-up of the game that would probably slow the fights down enough to be enjoyable, just requiring an AV-specific honor count to bring it in line with the shorter fights.
All of the above said, I am definitely in favor of just about everything Foury and the other posters have said, both in this thread and its dear friend in the Battlegrounds forum.
Edited by Yalingto on 7/25/11 3:51 PM (PDT)
I like the whole "slow down process" dea in The Field of Strife, however I think that the movement speed would be very annoying and frustrating for players. Maybe add npcs there that would have to be fought through?
Edited by Corbie on 7/26/11 3:21 PM (PDT)
BUMP FOR THE HORDE!
I've seen Classic AV support threads going 30+ pages (all supporting posts minus a few whiners) with no blue response.
Ima give this poetry thing a shot:
Great to see that's starting to catch on.
Like Hezza said, they're either mulling it over or just don't want to say no. The last time they said no (back in 2006) it spurred on additional efforts to reinstate Classic AV, rather than deterring them.
This next bit sums up my feelings on the whole non-communication issue, and hopefully many people agree:
Blizzard, you've been quiet for an awfully long time
On the subject of Old AV; So I bring to you this rhyme.
If you bring back our epic, classic, favourite battleground,
We'll forget the lack of communication that goes on year 'round.
For though we're quite frustrated that you never come to call,
We're happy to pretend like there was never a problem at all.
Just bring us back our Old AV with changes listed above,
And we'll smile and say "Hey, cool new stuff! That Blizzard we do love!"
I read some of it, before my mind started to explode from too much reading. :P
I was reading a similar thread earlier, asking for new battlegrounds (mechanics and scenery, not just WSG and AV remakes) and it got a blue post, talking about how the PvP world requires much, much more work and polishing. In PvE, if there's a little glitch like getting hung up on something or a line of sight issue, you can work around it until they patch it up. In PvP, a simple little glitch could give someone a huge advantage and make the entire match unbalanced.
I read some of it, before my mind started to explode from too much reading. :P
Yes. I wrote the original post before seeing that, but made appropriate edits before actually posting it.
All of Classic AV's mechanics and terrain are (or were) already implemented, and it needs only a relatively small number of adjustments compared to building a totally new battleground. It would appear, based on that post, that Classic AV is the easiest new battleground they could possibly implement at this time.
This is a poem, yes it is;
I'm an angry, fiery Wiz.
I want my Classic AV back,
And I'm a pyromaniac!
85 Human Warrior
Excellent post OP. I loved classic AV so much. i especially loved how if you had crappy gear (or level 51) you werent completely useless and could help gather resources to upgrade your forces or call in those special npcs.
I remember someone awhile back suggesting a "heroic" version of AV in addition to the regular one we have now. So you can choose if you want to play it either way, old or new.
And i also agree how AV should be our "different" map. As hard as it is to balance uneven maps, lets be honest for a second, whats the difference between the horde and alliance these days? Their gear is the same, they raid the same places, both sides have the same classes (pally and shaman im looking at you), etc. All that seems different to me now are starting quests.