A Different Model for Druid Tree Form Healing

4 Night Elf Druid
0

Seriously? You lost me here. WG is so far and away better than any other classes AoE spell it is silly.

Spell----------------------Mana Cost----------------Healing----------------Limit on Casting
Wild Growth-------------27% base mana-------------3700x5----------------8 sec cooldown
Circle of Healing---------21% base mana-------------2400x5---------------10 sec cooldown
Chain Heal---------------20% base mana-------------2215x4 (avg)---------2.5 sec cast time
Light of Dawn------------0%---------------------------1800x5-----------------3 HP charges

Its hard to compare them all directly, but I see WG's increased throughput being balanced by increased cost, as well as a cooldown, and the fact that its a HoT, not a direct heal.
Perhaps you can educate me on why exactly every other class sucks at AOE healing compared to druids?


Have you ever raided as a resto druid? WG can be spammed every 8 seconds, is a smart heal so positioning doesn't matter, can be cast while moving, scales incredibly well. Should i continue?
Reply Quote
08/18/2011 09:21 AMPosted by Cybrana
Have you ever raided as a resto druid? WG can be spammed every 8 seconds, is a smart heal so positioning doesn't matter, can be cast while moving, scales incredibly well. Should i continue?


Wildgrowth is also 6 targets because if your resto PVE and don't have a wildgrowth glyph you fail.
Reply Quote
08/18/2011 08:51 AMPosted by Drelnu
I purposfully left the buff small

Which is why it's useless. It would get overwritten by inspiration procs, and would take a ludicrous amount of mana to keep rolling.

08/18/2011 08:51 AMPosted by Drelnu
I figured that a direct heal, with a buffing benefit for repeated use, would be preferable to a direct heal/HoT combo for tank healing.

It's not.

08/18/2011 08:51 AMPosted by Drelnu
Besides, most people seem to think Druids are to OP already, so I didn't see alot of value in significantly buffing their flash-heal.

It's not a buff. It would heal less and cost the same.

08/18/2011 08:51 AMPosted by Drelnu
All I was doing was listing the spells capable of AOE healing

Smite is not capable of AoE healing.

Don't put words in my mouth. All I was doing was pointing out that a druid is not the only class capable of AOE/multi-target healing, and in sheer numbers of rapidly usable (not on cooldown) spells, we have about the same.

No other class has anything that compares to rejuv blanketing. WG is miles ahead of any other AoE healing spell. That paladins have light of dawn doesn't mean LoD is used or even that useful. You're comparing long CDs and niche abilities to our workhorses.

Its hard to compare them all directly, but I see WG's increased throughput being balanced by increased cost, as well as a cooldown, and the fact that its a HoT, not a direct heal.
Perhaps you can educate me on why exactly every other class sucks at AOE healing compared to druids?

About a dozen things are completely missed by your post. Lets look at two of the simplest things to compare, WG and CoH.

WG benefits from many more vectors of increased healing. Haste can add a new tick to WG (which is part of why druids stack haste), while the only benefit haste provides to CoH is a slightly shorter GCD. Because WG is a HoT, the spellpower coefficient is much higher than for an instant heal - with the same amount of spellpower, WG heals for maybe 50% more. It simply scales better. Mastery is also more valued for druids than holy priests (since holy priests have to juggle spirit stacking on their gear as well). Even if all other factors were exactly the same, the 2 second CD reduction that you dismissed as minor is a 20% reduction in time on CD and an accordingly higher HPS boost. That's why WG is our top heal on any fight with a significant AoE component while holy priests switch over to Prayer of Healing for significant AoE healing.

08/18/2011 08:51 AMPosted by Drelnu
My goal is to make druids choose one slight specialization over another, without making the whole class so specialized that they can't perfrom any other role

They already can. While it's not ideal, a guild who for whatever reason needs a druid as a consistent tank healer can put points into living seed/nature's bounty over botg/gotem.
Reply Quote
08/18/2011 09:28 AMPosted by Kranian
a guild who for whatever reason needs a druid as a consistent tank healer can put points into living seed/nature's bounty over botg/gotem.


Don't necessarily need those talents for tank healing either. I healed Shannox and the tanks fine last night with my current spec.
Reply Quote
85 Goblin Shaman
8840
Druids already have too many spells and they dont even cast all of them...

But Blizz should bring back Tree Form, as a minimal buff, and ToL as the big cd it's right now.

The Glyph should allow the toon to like <insert race here> but keeping the buff.
Reply Quote
08/18/2011 10:20 AMPosted by Bemith
Don't necessarily need those talents for tank healing either. I healed Shannox and the tanks fine last night with my current spec.


Yeah, it's not to say that those are needed, just that a dedicated tank healer has options to help tank healing at the expense of raid healing. Granted, having a druid as a dedicated tank healer implies bigger problems than the placement of 6 talent points, but there are currently options.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4880
Yeah, it's not to say that those are needed, just that a dedicated tank healer has options to help tank healing at the expense of raid healing. Granted, having a druid as a dedicated tank healer implies bigger problems than the placement of 6 talent points, but there are currently options.


Why should there be any "problem" with having a druid as a dedicated tank healer? As another poster pointed out, Blizzard wants people to have more options with their "bring the player not the class" philosophy.
That was the impetous behind Invigorate, which replaces Regrowth. A druids primary tank healing spells are still the LifeBloom-stacks and Nourish/Healing Touch, but if you have an emergency and need something quick and spammy, then Regrowth doesnt really cut it. The direct heal portion is smaller than pretty much every other classes fast-heal, and after casting it once the HoT just become redundant.
So I buffed the direct healing SLIGHTLY, and added a function that will benefit from short-term spam. The idea is that once you have cast 2-3 Invigorates, the "OHCRAP!" moment has passed and you return to your regular rotation. Since the spell is very expensive and the damage reduction not that large, its not efficient for the druid to try to keep it up at all times, especially if they are raid-healing.
Also, this is sort of an indirect-benefit, but it might also help address some druid PvP concerns about druids being to squishy. As I said before though, I don't PvP with this toon, so your millieage might vary on that one and I wont try to back up that portion.

My basic goal with the suggested changes was more geared towards making single-target healing more attractive in some cases, not really trying to buff AOE/group healing any more than it already is. I haven't done alot of raiding in this expansion, but if druids are falling back into the WG/Rejuv spam that I THOUGHT we where getting away from, maybe some of those spells need a small nerf to throughput or increase in mana cost.
One of the reasons for posting this in the general healing forum instead the druid specific-forum was so that other classes could chime in with feedback.
Edited by Drelnu on 9/14/2011 10:59 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
10470
So basically you want Chakra, except with a vastly, massively better special spell in the AoE stance and a CD stance that lets you access both? On top of already being better in every measurable way? And without giving up any of the things that make you better?
Edited by Kaels on 9/14/2011 11:16 AM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
1935
We don't need any more spells. We can tank heal fine with the right talents and we're already pretty amazing healers. We don't need every heal to be similar to another class' (and I would even argue LB = PoM already.)

However, I would like perma-tree form as well. So here's my solution: remove Gift of Nature as a passive bonus. Make 2 new major glyphs that grant the buff while in either humanoid or tree form. (Perma-tree form can be learned at a trainer.) There. Those who want tree form can use it and those who are anti-environment, tree-burning lumberjacks, don't have to.

And yes, this is directly modeled after WotLK tree form.

Edit: Why Major glyph? Because 25% increased healing warrants at least a major one. Also, what else are you using a major glyph on? Healing Touch? Thorns (like me if you're not specced into Nature's Swiftness)?
Edited by Orcabernet on 9/14/2011 11:29 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
9605
You know a class is doing great when the biggest concern is what we LOOK like.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4880
09/14/2011 11:06 AMPosted by Kaels
So basically you want Chakra, except with a vastly, massively better special spell in the AoE stance and a CD stance that lets you access both? On top of already being better in every measurable way? And without giving up any of the things that make you better?


I'm not sure I buy into the whole "druids are better at everything" argument; I think Blizzard keeps at least half an eye on that kind of thing; hence the recent pally-mana nerf. I'm all about balance though, and if you feel druids are to powerful, please say so but BE SPECIFIC.
"Your class is overly powerful" isn't very helpful.
"Your overall healing throughput needs to decrease by a small/large amount" or "Lifebloom is fine but WG is too cheap for the benefit" are the kinds of comments I can respond to directly.

While this druid is arguably my main, I have lots of toons that I play regularly, including a priest. He's mostly shadow, though, and I had chalked up most difficulties healing with him to differences in gear. You are not the first person who I've heard debate about wether Sanctuary is worth-while, so maybe that spell needs a buff. Also, make sure you are taking the mana cost I attached to the AOE spell Enliven into account; it costs almost as much as Sanctuary, so anyone trying to spam it wouldn't last very long, and it can't heal the druid who casts it.

Also, I acknowledge that the addition of role-specific spells would make druids more powerful healers, and that to keep them balanced there might need to be a decrease in overall healing power, or an increase in mana cost.
What do you think might be a good amount? Possibly a 5% decrease in throughput? A 10% decrease in spell-power scaling? More?
Maybe make all spells 2/5/8% more expensive?
I don't want to invite druid hate, but the forums is a place for discussion, so lets have one.
Edited by Drelnu on 9/14/2011 12:12 PM PDT
Reply Quote
20 Night Elf Druid
80
Invigorate: 1.5 Second Cast, 35% of base mana
Heals the target for 3800 to 4400. The targets skin becomes as tough as bark, reducing all physical damage taken by 2% for 8 seconds, stacking up to 3 times.


You really have to make the physical damage reduction buff match Inspiration/Ancestral Healing (and not stack with them). Even then, you'd probably need to give Priests/Shaman the ability to force a crit every 10 - 15 sec on some spell. Otherwise you create a situation where bringing a Resto Druid for the tank buff would be essentially mandatory.

There's also the issue that you're "breaking" the troika of direct heals by creating a fourth basic direct heal. It would probably be better to simply make the damage reduction portion a talent/glyph for an existing direct heal.

Enliven: Instant Cast, 24% of base mana
Heals the target and all targets (max 5) within 10 yards for 500 every second for 4 seconds. When the HoT is finished, Enliven jumps to a party or raid member within 20 yards. Jumps up to 2 times. Enliven can only be on one target at a time.


Multi-target healing with Resto Druids is an extremely problematic area due to the HoT emphasis. On a single target, HoT balance great efficiency (in both time and mana) against the fact that they can't deliver all their healing very quickly. However, once you're healing multiple targets this disadvantage effectively disappears and HoT become almost strictly better than direct heals. The upshot is that non-Druid classes need to have a significant edge in multi-target heals to be even remotely competitive with Druids at raid healing.

Arguably both Wild Growth and Efflorescence were a bad idea, although it's certainly understandable that Blizzard didn't want Druids stuck casting only Rejuvenation and refreshing a HoT stack on the tank since that gets old rather quick.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
1935
So basically you want Chakra, except with a vastly, massively better special spell in the AoE stance and a CD stance that lets you access both? On top of already being better in every measurable way? And without giving up any of the things that make you better?


Also, I acknowledge that the addition or role-specific spells would make druids more powerful healers, and that to keep them balanced there might need to be a decrease in overall healing power, or an increase in mana cost.
What do you think might be a good amount? Possibly a 5% decrease in throughput? A 10% decrease in spell-power scaling? More?
Maybe make all spells 2/5/8% more expensive?
I don't want to invite druid hate, but the forums is a place for discussion, so lets have one.


In Cata beta, Holy Priest's Spiritual Healing passive bonus was 25%, similar to Druid Gift of Nature. However, in Cata launch, it was nerfed by 10% for Holy Priests, but remained static for Druids. Let's start with that nerf to Druids.

Also, I believe it was 4.1, that Druids were able to reduce the CD of Tranquility to 3 minutes, down from 8, through talents. Remove Holy Priest talent of "State of Mind" and replace it with a CD reduction for Divine Hymn.

With Holy Concentration being the main regen talent of Holy Priests, give the spirit boost that the talent "Spirit of Redemption" used to give prior to Cata. (I believe it was 5%?) Or possibly give them a "Rapture"/"Revitalize" talent.

I also think the talent "Moonglow" is too good to be available to Resto Druids. Possibly place the talent lower on the tree?

Edit: Sorry, this became a post about "Make Holy Priest better!" rather than "Equalize druids with other healers!"
Edited by Orcabernet on 9/14/2011 12:23 PM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
4880
You really have to make the physical damage reduction buff match Inspiration/Ancestral Healing (and not stack with them). Even then, you'd probably need to give Priests/Shaman the ability to force a crit every 10 - 15 sec on some spell. Otherwise you create a situation where bringing a Resto Druid for the tank buff would be essentially mandatory.

This is actual the kind of situation I was trying to avoid. My goal was to make the buff usefull, but not so usefull that it becomes mandatory. Mostly, I figured that I could accomplish this by giving it a short duraction and attaching it to a relatively expensive spell. As I said, I want Lifebloom in conjunction with Nourish/HT to remain the primary tank-healing combo, with Invigorate only used during periods of spike-damage or emergencies.

There's also the issue that you're "breaking" the troika of direct heals by creating a fourth basic direct heal. It would probably be better to simply make the damage reduction portion a talent/glyph for an existing direct heal.

Remember though, under my model you can't use both Regrowth and Invigorate at the same time; you would be spending both GCDs and mana to switch back and forth between them. If keeping access to the Big-3 at all times is your major concern, then Enliven would be the issue because I used it to replaced Healing Touch, which I figured wasn't terribly important to druids in raid-healing mode.

...The upshot is that non-Druid classes need to have a significant edge in multi-target heals to be even remotely competitive with Druids at raid healing.

Arguably both Wild Growth and Efflorescence were a bad idea, although it's certainly understandable that Blizzard didn't want Druids stuck casting only Rejuvenation and refreshing a HoT stack on the tank since that gets old rather quick.

So maybe we can reduce the +healing coefficient of the major raid healing spells, such as WG and Rejuv. One reason druids end up raid healing so often is because they are just so damn good at it, right? Afterall, using a druid for something OTHER than raid healing feels kind of like a waste, so maybe be reducing its relative power, people will get over the "Druid=raid heals" mentality.
Edited by Drelnu on 9/14/2011 1:47 PM PDT
Reply Quote
20 Night Elf Druid
80
09/14/2011 01:23 PMPosted by Drelnu
This is actual the kind of situation I was trying to avoid. My goal was to make the buff usefull, but not so usefull that it becomes mandatory.


To some extent, there's a degree of 'wiggle room'. Right now, the shielding effects of Paladins/Discipline Priests tend to trump the value of Inspiration/Ancestral Healing for example. However, this has a great deal to do with their random nature as well.

But you have to ask yourself what adding such an ability would accomplish. Either it would be powerful enough to be almost mandatory or it would be a largely superfluous part of the spell. There are certainly better ways to make the spell 'interesting'.

Remember though, under my model you can't use both Regrowth and Invigorate at the same time; you would be spending both GCDs and mana to switch back and forth between them. If keeping access to the Big-3 at all times is your major concern, then Enliven would be the issue because I used it to replaced Healing Touch, which I figured wasn't terribly important to druids in raid-healing mode.


But why not just make tree form change Regrowth? One of the major nuisance factors to Chakra is the fact that you've got three different mutually exclusive spells rather than a single spell that can be easily hotkey'd. With Chakra it makes some degree of sense due to the different targeting methods. But two spells that do basically the same thing with a minor variation? Might as well just transform Regrowth.

So maybe we can reduce the +healing coefficient of the major raid healing spells, such as WG and Rejuv. One reason druids end up raid healing so often is because they are just so damn good at it, right? Afterall, using a druid for something OTHER than raid healing feels kind of like a waste, so maybe be reducing its relative power, people will get over the "Druid=raid heals" mentality.


I think you're missing my point. With direct heals, you can have all sorts of different multi-target heals that you select based on the targeting demands because you can't heal that amount of damage with single target direct heals. With HoT, you really only need a good single target HoT and you're fine for AE healing because it's single target nature matches all possible targeting scenarios and its volume of healing is sufficient.

But once you start nerfing Rejuvenation, you're eliminating the basic paradigm of Druid healing. It might be justified for an interesting new ability. But for a mindless ability you simply push on cooldown because it's almost always appropriate for raid healing? Not really.

Essentially your changes seem to be "I want to turn Druids into Holy Priests". Which I doubt you're going to find much support for doing, since people would just play Holy Priests if they wanted that.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Warlock
4475
Aargh, forums, broken, can't switch characters. This is Kaels.

Essentially your changes seem to be "I want to turn Druids into Holy Priests". Which I doubt you're going to find much support for doing, since people would just play Holy Priests if they wanted that.

Well, to be honest, if druids were turned into holy priests in the way suggested by the OP, I think I'd be playing a druid. That AoE spell he's suggesting sounds hella fun...that on top of WG? And no more PoH spam? And actual Int-based passive mana regen? I'm sold. Although I think I'd want the AoE to have PoM's sound effect when it bounced. I get lonely without PoM.

While this druid is arguably my main, I have lots of toons that I play regularly, including a priest. He's mostly shadow, though, and I had chalked up most difficulties healing with him to differences in gear. You are not the first person who I've heard debate about wether Sanctuary is worth-while, so maybe that spell needs a buff. Also, make sure you are taking the mana cost I attached to the AOE spell Enliven into account; it costs almost as much as Sanctuary, so anyone trying to spam it wouldn't last very long, and it can't heal the druid who casts it.

You suggested 24% of base mana. Sanc costs 44% of base, or over 9000 mana.

On top of that, it does more healing than Sanc, with the numbers you suggested. 500 * 6 targets * 4 ticks * 3 = 36000 healing, before modifiers. Sanc (when not bugged) is 327 * 6 * 9 ticks = 17658 before modifiers, or about half as much.

So basically, your spell heals twice as much as Sanc is intended to heal for half the mana. Of course, in a 25m stack phase right now Sanc heals about 4 times as much as it's supposed to due to lack of diminishing returns, so they're theoretically equal HPS in a situation where 24 people are stacked, except that...well, yours is only splitting its healing among 6 targets at a time/18 total, and the heals are bigger, and they're smart.

Don't get me wrong, I love this spell idea and want it, but it's better than Sanc in every humanly imaginable way.

(I'm talking about your v1.0 idea. I'm somewhat less interested in your v2.0, which just seems...meh. Why would you even want a spell that inefficient and inflexible?)

Also, I acknowledge that the addition of role-specific spells would make druids more powerful healers, and that to keep them balanced there might need to be a decrease in overall healing power, or an increase in mana cost.
What do you think might be a good amount? Possibly a 5% decrease in throughput? A 10% decrease in spell-power scaling? More?
Maybe make all spells 2/5/8% more expensive?
I don't want to invite druid hate, but the forums is a place for discussion, so lets have one.

I'm not sure exactly. I have a hard time asking for nerfs to other classes. What I really want to see is Holy buffed up to your level.Holy needs...well, basically it needs a Revitalize equivalent (Int-based passive regen) in place of Holy Concentration, and Surge of Light needs to be tweaked to proc as much as OOC. And on top of that we need a raid CD and some minor throughput buffs. At that point, we can talk about buffing our toys and maybe giving you some toys too.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
5180
08/12/2011 08:39 AMPosted by Mombur
.........i just want my tree back


I, too, just want my Tree back. :*(
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
14115
.........i just want my tree back


I, too, just want my Tree back. :*(


Why are you all so attached to wilted broccoli-form?

I'm very happy to have an improved version as a CD and spending most of my time in caster form.

Thank you, Blizzard

Edit: I'm also happy with druid healing - sure, we lack a mitigation CD, but we get greater throughput to compensate. If we were healing alone, it'd be problematic, but we team up with pallies, disc priests, and shamans very well.

That being said, I lliked our old talented chance to give raid members extra mana/focus/whatever, but it should probably go to holy priests and shamans for balance purposes.
Edited by Tamrath on 9/14/2011 9:51 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
10550
I'm also happy with druid healing - sure, we lack a mitigation CD, but we get greater throughput to compensate. If we were healing alone, it'd be problematic, but we team up with pallies, disc priests, and shamans very well.


Pretty much this. I miss the bouncing tree form, but I do like having amazing throughput. We're exceptional raid healers and pretty darn good tank healers, imo, even without a defensive cooldown. Druids are in a great place right now.
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
2060
I totally agree I want perma tree form back. However, just giving each form somewhat superficial healing style changes or focus rather would essentially be druid chakra states. Which I'm good with but I don't know if blue would want.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]