How To Implement Cross-Realm Raid Finder

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This is a topic that has come up time and time again, but I think really needs some thought now that the Only Raiders Need Raid Gear vs. T11 for JP's argument has really heated up.

I think there is a way to do this and do it right, here's the plan:

***NOTE: In this post the term "ENCOUNTER" refers to an individual boss fight.***

1. Cannot be used for current tier raids. If you want to do the current tier, then get a guild or start a pug.

2. Players can queue for a specific encounter or a random encounter. Queueing for a specific encounter will put it on a 72-hour cooldown and you can't go back to that specific encounter even if you queue for random. However, if you group with people on your server, you can do it again and the normal raid lock will then apply.

3. Bosses award 25 valor points each, with a maximum of 200 per week via the Raid Finder system.

4. Before you can use the system for a specific encounter, you must have read that encounter in the Dungeon Journal. Before you can queue for a random, you must have read every encounter in the Dungeon Journal.

5. Minimum item level of 5 points higher than the last Heroic tier required to use. Example: The Zul's require 346, so the raid finder requires at least 351.

6. Unlocks at level 60. Can be used to assemble groups of 40 for Molten Core, AQ, or 25 for Tempest Keep, Black Temple, and so on...so you can roll an alt and have it just like the good days if you so desire and are willing to wait.

7. Cannot be used for any Heroic difficulty encounters.

8. All groups will require one Raid Leader, which means that at least one person in the group must already have completed the encounter. If you possess an achievement for the fight you are queued for (if you are queued for that fight specifically), you will be given priority and grouped faster. Anybody with full achieves for all of the content is given that same preference when queued for a random.

9. One kick is allowed for every 2 tries. A try begins when the boss is aggroed. No player can be kicked before that. If after two tries the group is still unsuccessful, the group has the option to kick one player. Any player kicked must re-read the encounter in the dungeon journal before being allowed to re-queue. There is a one-hour deserter penalty for any player that drops group within five minutes of entering an encounter, unless the group wipes before five minutes have elapsed.

10. During loot rolls, players can only need role on items that correspond to the spec they are currently in. Example: A DPS/Tank Druid cannot need on any item with Spirit. A Holy Paladin cannot need on any item with Strength, and so on...

This system will allow casuals to EARN their tier gear and will not bother the hardcores because the casuals will always be one tier behind. They can still get the newest items first and not feel like others are getting epic stuff for less work. This way, EVERYBODY WHO WANTS TO AND IS WILLING TO WORK FOR IT will be able to eventually see and do all the content in the game. No more getting screwed over by groups that break down because a healer leaves, no more spamming trade all day if you're level 70 and want to do TK, this system will make sure that everybody has equal opportunity to EARN their gear and get to do the content. If I left anything out, please feel free to add in more suggestions.
Edited by Ricardozara on 8/15/2011 5:24 PM PDT
I think it's an awesome in theory.. but trying to direct a zg group is like herding blind cattle... let alone 9 other people in a raid!

some things that could make it better: If a person signs up to be the leader they should have completed every boss in the instance atleast 5 times,

and for the other people I think they should have the achievement for that raid as well as the ilvl.
Edited by Miagi on 8/13/2011 12:08 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
7375
I'm all for some sort of implementation of a cross-realm raid finder... more to give people on lower populated servers equal shots at gear as people on high pop servers. It would definitely make it so not so many servers lag behind on raid progression and give a better experience for the gamers.

I think it should be so you queue for an individual raid boss, rather than for a specific raid. Once you complete earlier encounters you can then queue for later encoutners.

This way if something comes up and you can't raid with your guild you can still get a shot at gear and not lag behind... plus it will make it easier to gear up alts.
I hadn't even considered the alt angle, that's another plus.

Thundercleft, what I meant by "encounters" was individual boss fights. I'll edit that to make it clearer.

Also, I'll add in the idea that if you queue to be the leader then you have to have an achieve for the fight, that's a good idea too, but if you already have achieves then you don't need to use this tool...this is simply a way for able-bodied/minded players to be able to get into the content. I think there's a lot of people in the same situation as me who are geared for the content, know the content, but just can't get in there to give a try or have a lot of trouble finding groups that will give them a shot. This will fix it and make sure that EVERYONE WHO HAS DONE THE WORK is given a CHANCE to do the content.
Edited by Ricardozara on 8/13/2011 2:16 PM PDT
Oh and also, imagine what this will do for smaller guilds. They'll finally start to get some traction as soon as their members start completing some content. Some much needed extra exp for them.
85 Human Paladin
6780
5. Minimum item level of 5 points higher than the last Heroic tier required to use. Example: The Zul's require 346, so the raid finder requires at least 351.


So.... you have to have a higher level of gear to do the nerfed content than you did to do it when it was new?
08/13/2011 02:24 PMPosted by Aldiara
5. Minimum item level of 5 points higher than the last Heroic tier required to use. Example: The Zul's require 346, so the raid finder requires at least 351.


So.... you have to have a higher level of gear to do the nerfed content than you did to do it when it was new?


Tell that to the people running the pugs in Trade that want 360. That's the alternative.
90 Night Elf Druid
7375
I don't get the negativity with the idea of Cross-Realm raids... even if 90% of the groups are fail, you can still get into the raids and get some experience with a boss fight ... if you don't down the boss you've at least got a feel for how the fight goes if you're an inexperienced raider.

It's not like joining a PuG raid that doesn't down a boss is wasted time by any means. It's something that would definitely help the learning curve for people who don't have much raid experience and is worth implementing.

It's also fairly easy to spot people who aren't pulling their weight... if too many people in your group are fail, just drop group and requeue and if just a few are fail votekick and replace.
A LFR tool simply isn't feasible. Loot is the number one issue. There are enough problems with people taking loot for an OS over someone who needs it for MS, or needing something just to vendor or d/e it. You would have to redesign the way Need before Greed works completely. Secondly, many people in LFD don't have the skill to down a raid boss. Many of them struggle enough in 5-mans as it is. It only takes one bad player to screw a group in some raid encounters. Removing the vote kick limit isn't an option either, groups would abuse it to cherry-pick players. Third, LFR would have to be very careful with group compositions. Having all melee or all ranged just doesn't work on some encounters.

I think that a LFR tool would be more of a headache than anything. Sure, it's more difficult to PuG on a low population servers (but far from impossible), but even on a medium-pop, poorly progressed server like Dawnbringer I can still PuG 12/12 every week.
90 Night Elf Druid
7375
A LFR tool simply isn't feasible. Loot is the number one issue. There are enough problems with people taking loot for an OS over someone who needs it for MS, or needing something just to vendor or d/e it. You would have to redesign the way Need before Greed works completely. Secondly, many people in LFD don't have the skill to down a raid boss. Many of them struggle enough in 5-mans as it is. It only takes one bad player to screw a group in some raid encounters. Removing the vote kick limit isn't an option either, groups would abuse it to cherry-pick players. Third, LFR would have to be very careful with group compositions. Having all melee or all ranged just doesn't work on some encounters.


Nobody said a LFR tool would have to use Need before Greed. There's plenty of ways the loot system could easily be modified for PuG raids.

As far as skill goes... there's a lot of very good players out there that only lack experience... but can't get the experience because they can't get into raids. A LFR tool would not only give them experience, I think you'll find the experience level will pick up.

When LFD was introduced, I saw an immediate jump in the skill level of your average person in a pug dungeon... even the "bads" in your pug dungeon are far better than some of the bads were when you had to form your dungeon group on your own realm via trade/lfg chat. Plus, the LFD tool gave players to opportunity to get into a lot of groups with experienced players and were able to pick things up quickly by observing what the good players do... an experience they weren't getting because they weren't able to group with many outstanding players prior to the introduction of the LFD feature.

For every dungeon where people complain about some tank that can't hold aggro, or a dps that does 2k dps, there's another five where you get into a boss fight with difficult mechanics and people instinctively know what to do without being told. The more opportunities the player base gets to raid, the more second nature raid boss mechanics come to the raiding community. IMHO the skill level is a non-issue when it comes down to a LFR tool.

As far as vote kicks go... Blizzard has been very good in the past about keeping an eye on the statistics and player feedback, and making adjustments to find a good happy medium that works for most of the playerbase. Same can be true for raids. You can make a vote kick system for raids that is dramatically different than the dungeon vote kick system... for example you can force all pug raids to make at least one attempt before anyone can be votekicked... then only allow one kick between attempts after-that... if you're kicked, just requeue... it's not a big deal, because it's easy to just requeue.

08/13/2011 03:21 PMPosted by Timewarped
Loot is the number one issue. There are enough problems with people taking loot for an OS over someone who needs it for MS, or needing something just to vendor or d/e it.


Ok then make it so that you can only need if the item is necessary to your the spec you're currently in. For example, if you're a Feral Druid, you can't need on anything with spirit. If you're a Holy Paladin, you can't need on anything with Strength, etc. It really wouldn't be that hard to do. Also, you can't need on anything you already have. Would it really be beyond current game design limits to make a loot system like that?
08/13/2011 03:39 PMPosted by Thundercleft
You can make a vote kick system for raids that is dramatically different than the dungeon vote kick system... for example you can force all pug raids to make at least one attempt before anyone can be votekicked... then only allow one kick between attempts after-that... if you're kicked, just requeue... it's not a big deal, because it's easy to just requeue.


That is a freakin awesome idea, but I'd be a bit more forgiving with it. You get 1 kick every 2 tries. That means you can give it 2 shots, if no luck, you have the option to boot the player you think is screwing you up.

After a kick, you can't requeue until you have read the encounter again in the dungeon journal.
Edited original post to include kick rule.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
4965
This is an amazing idea. I can start to raid on my higher level toons, and I can do my AQ temple again the way it should be done.




Someone get this man a medal.
This is an amazing idea. I can start to raid on my higher level toons, and I can do my AQ temple again the way it should be done.




Someone get this man a medal.


Haha thanks, but I'd just be happy with a blue dropping in to say "We have noted your suggestion."

We SERIOUSLY need something like this so save subs at end-game because people are quitting because they can't raid and are getting really bored. If it's done RIGHT (which is what I've tried to outline, in my opinion), there's no reason it can't be a part of the game and give us all access to what we've been working towards since level 1.
85 Draenei Priest
2040
Some problems I could foresee about this:

1. THAT guy that queues in with full pvp gear
2. LFR system like this effective ends any sense of realm community, like LFD did to some degree
3. Blizzard has done everything it can to push and encourage you to raid with your guild. This goes against what they have been doing.
4. Major loot problems. That dps warrior wins that tanking trinket over the main tank. Main spec vs. off spec. Ninja looting possibilities with no repercussions, due to different realms.
5. In game griefing.

edit: fro grammar
Edited by Ivria on 8/13/2011 4:38 PM PDT
08/13/2011 04:08 PMPosted by Ivria
1. THAT guy that queues in with full pvp gear


Well that could have been fixed a long time ago by making all PvP gear level 1 or something like that. That's a totally different thread. Also note the kick rule. If there's somebody in total PvP gear and it's such a disruption that it leads to a wipe, you can boot him.

4. Major loot problems. That dps warrior wins that tanking trinket over the main tank. Main spec vs. off spec.


I've already suggested to make it so that you can only need for items that correspond to the spec you're currently in. I don't think it would be that difficult to enforce.

3. Blizzard has done everything I can to push and encourage you to raid with your guild. This goes against what they have been doing.


Maybe they'll just have to admit that not everybody who wants to raid is in a hardcore raiding guild and that was the wrong direction to take. Besides, the LFR tool will not be allowed to be used to queue for any current tier raids, so the hardcore guilds will still be able to be kings of Trade.

Realm community and in-game griefing are entirely separate issues. Realm community is the responsibility of players on the realm to create and maintain. Nobody's saying you can get a group of folks together form your realm and queue as a group. There will always be griefing no matter what. That's why we can report people.
90 Night Elf Druid
7375
Some problems I could foresee about this:

1. THAT guy that queues in with full pvp gear
2. LFR system like this effective ends any sense of realm community, like LFD did to some degree
3. Blizzard has done everything I can to push and encourage you to raid with your guild. This goes against what they have been doing.
4. Major loot problems. That dps warrior wins that tanking trinket over the main tank. Main spec vs. off spec. Ninja looting possibilities with no repercussions, due to different realms.
5. In game griefing.


1) THAT guy is going to happen. No amount of game design will ever prevent THAT guy from happening. I don't know of anyone who would say that LFD is a bad idea because THAT guy queues for random dungeons. It'll be frustrating if THAT guy queues for a raid, but I believe you'll find that THAT guy isn't that frequent and the system as a whole will be good despite the occasional appearance of THAT guy.

2) Realm community is already dead on so many servers. PvP servers especially have factions that have been decimated and the game play experience for gamers that remain there would be greatly enhanced by a LFR tool, even if it means a hit to the community on a few larger servers. Consider this a needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few issue.

3) This is a good point... I'll give you this one. But still any feature that gives player more of an opportunity to experience game content will result in more happy subscribers. It's worthy of Blizzard's consideration.

4) As mentioned before in this thread, the loot system does not need to be Need before Greed by default. It might take some work on the design end, but a different loot system for LFR can be implimented.

5) Griefing happens all the time. It happens in your dungeons, it happens in your auction house, it happens with your holiday bosses. If you get someone who is griefing, you can always open a ticket and report them. In all, I don't think it'll be as big of an issue as you think, but it will happen from time to time.
90 Night Elf Druid
7375

1. THAT guy that queues in with full pvp gear


Well that could have been fixed a long time ago by making all PvP gear level 1 or something like that. That's a totally different thread. Also note the kick rule. If there's somebody in total PvP gear and it's such a disruption that it leads to a wipe, you can boot him.


This is one case where I disagree... there are a few cases where some pvp gear is better than pve equivilents... specifcally in cases where the PvE set bonuses for certain class/specs are lackluster compared to PvP set bonuses.

It doesn't make it ok to queue in all PvP gear, but I won't ever give anyone a hard time for a couple pieces of PvP gear, especially if they provide a good set bonus.
08/13/2011 04:21 PMPosted by Thundercleft
It'll be frustrating if THAT guy queues for a raid, but I believe you'll find that THAT guy isn't that frequent and the system as a whole will be good despite the occasional appearance of THAT guy.


Not to mention that after five or six runs he'll probably have replaced whatever PvP gear he had on in the first place.
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