How To Implement Cross-Realm Raid Finder

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100 Human Rogue
9690
08/14/2011 12:36 PMPosted by Timewarped
There's no way you can tell if someone actually read it or not. Have you ever read the entire ToU, or do you just scroll to the bottom and hit next? The Dungeon Journal requirement is meaningless.


In all honesty, the terms of use is so long and boring that I doubt anybody out there has actually read it. The Dungeon Journal however, is interesting and educational. I don't think that making it a requirement would discourage people from using the system at all. Most people have probably already flipped through most of it anyway. I read it all the time while I'm waiting for queues to pop or whenever I just have general questions about something. Why do underestimate the community so much? Not all players are as bad as you think. If you said "You have to read the dungeon journal first", I'll bet a good 80% of people would. Another 15% would probably skim through and note the more important points, which would be enough coupled with the gear requirement. The other 5% would be the ones getting kicked and subsequently automatically replaced almost immediately with one of the other 95% of the people.

And if you think the tool would lead to you wiping, then, as stated, you're more than welcome to not use it and continue to run only with people you know and trust. If you're that hardcore, then you won't even need the tool anyway because you'll be too busy with the current tier.

08/14/2011 12:36 PMPosted by Timewarped
None of the Zul dungeons required coordination. Apart from someone of the tanking requirements, if you failed at something only you would face consequences. Rarely would failing at a mechanic wipe the entire group. Zul dungeons also have no mechanics that require you to assign a specific person to a specific task.


Oh my...let's see, you have the bear boss in ZA where you have to coordinate people to step out of the group so that the healer doesn't get mauled (and again on the last boss), you have the guy who calls out the hatchers and you need to coordinate who's going to go take them out, you have Jin'do which is all about kiting adds off the healer while others nail burst damage on the chains and the tank controls the body slam things, there's plenty. Not even just in the Zul's, hell, look at some of the regular heroics. The 2nd boss in Blackrock Caverns with the laser beams, the high priest in Halls of Origination you have to coordinate big time to pull the levers and keep someone up top to interrupt...

Players have learned and improved A LOT by doing these encounters and they are most definitely ready to be able to PuG raids that are already nerfed and that they already outgear.

08/14/2011 12:36 PMPosted by Timewarped
However, it didn't matter because we all outgeared the instance so much that would easily 3-man the entire instance.


Pre-nerf these instances were being flown through by guilds in 346 gear. Now they have been nerfed and the minimum ilvl I have proposed is 351. Thank you for proving my point.
Why do underestimate the community so much? Not all players are as bad as you think. If you said "You have to read the dungeon journal first", I'll bet a good 80% of people would. Another 15% would probably skim through and note the more important points, which would be enough coupled with the gear requirement. The other 5% would be the ones getting kicked and subsequently automatically replaced almost immediately with one of the other 95% of the people.


And I believe you're seriously overestimating how many people are good players. Only Blizzard knows for sure, but I can guarantee it's nowhere near 80%.

08/14/2011 01:01 PMPosted by Ricardozara
the bear boss in ZA where you have to coordinate people to step out of the group so that the healer doesn't get mauled (and again on the last boss),


You don't need to coordinate a specific order. If you have anyone with the debuff run into melee range, and then spread out during the bear phase no one would get hit twice.

08/14/2011 01:01 PMPosted by Ricardozara
you have the guy who calls out the hatchers and you need to coordinate who's going to go take them out,


It's as complicated as someone typing out "kill left", and that's even if you decide to kill the hatchers. The dragonhawks have so little HP and do so little damage to a tank that is doesn't matter if you let them hatch all at once or not.

08/14/2011 01:01 PMPosted by Ricardozara
you have Jin'do which is all about kiting adds off the healer while others nail burst damage on the chains and the tank controls the body slam things, there's plenty.


Any ranged can kill adds, you don't need to a have a specific person on adds. Body Slam is just about standing in the right place. You don't need to make adjustments during the fight. And even if you do miss a Body Slam, it does nothing more than prolong the fight rather than wiping your group.

08/14/2011 01:01 PMPosted by Ricardozara
2nd boss in Blackrock Caverns with the laser beams


Who is also skippable. And PuG's still have a hard time doing that fight.

08/14/2011 01:01 PMPosted by Ricardozara
the high priest in Halls of Origination you have to coordinate big time to pull the levers and keep someone up top to interrupt...


His attack does so little damage, you can have the entire group jump down with out it mattering much. And it doesn't matter who hits a lever, so long as it's not a tank.

Pre-nerf these instances were being flown through by guilds in 346 gear. Now they have been nerfed and the minimum ilvl I have proposed is 351. Thank you for proving my point.


I'm not proving your point. I was talking about running a dungeon in ICC25 gear that was designed for people in Ulduar gear. It would be like running BWD in full heroic T12 gear.
100 Human Rogue
9690
08/14/2011 02:33 PMPosted by Timewarped
And I believe you're seriously overestimating how many people are good players. Only Blizzard knows for sure, but I can guarantee it's nowhere near 80%.


I'm saying that after people have more experience with the encounters it will be, just like the Zul's are now. Certainly 80% of the population didn't clear the troll heroics their first time through with no wipes and no learning curve. I hope you don't think that's what I was implying.

But, take a run through one now. Any random pug can clear both of them anytime with no trouble. Why? Because they had experience, they had practice, they got educated.

Sure the first month or so the tool is available would probably be a wipe fest, but eventually players would get used to it and it would become normal, just like what happened in the Zuls. That means players would get better. That's good for everybody.
100 Human Rogue
9690
bump
85 Blood Elf Priest
12590
Another item that would help with this idea would be a better in-game Voice system (imo) communication with these individuals would greatly improve the chance of a successful raid.
They could even add in the current cross realm friend system to help fill the parts of the raid out. Perhaps even coming to the idea of cross realm guilds.

Spirit of Cooperation- The good work together
Spirit of Competition- The Evil work against each other
Which are you?
100 Human Rogue
9690
08/14/2011 09:36 PMPosted by Enyalois
They could even add in the current cross realm friend system to help fill the parts of the raid out.


I think that would be another huge benefit to Blizzard, especially since it's a premium service. They'll probably be more willing to think about something like this if it means they'll be able to sell more of that kind of stuff, so that's a pretty good idea. Thanks for mentioning it, it hadn't even crossed my mind.
100 Blood Elf Warlock
17030
I really love this idea. However, I think most of the restrictions can go away.

- Require an appropriate minimum item level. A group right at this level should be hard-pressed to beat the boss, but since most people will quickly get past the level, overall group ilevel should still be fine for clearing the dungeon (just like current 5-mans). As discussed on other threads, revising item level (across all dungeon finders) to ignore resilience or other useless-to-your-spec stats, and include gems, enchants and appropriate-reforging could be useful, but would likely be unnecessarily complex. Some people try to tank ZA in ilvl ~280 dps gear (yes, it happened), but most don't.

- Need before greed is fine. The current system results in very little problem with 5-mans, and even should a clothie dps deliberately roll on your holy priest item, if you keep rolling Need, you'll get it eventually. However, I'm not opposed to Need-MS, Need-OS, Greed, either for LFR or the existing LFD. If my prot pally sees holy gear, I wait to see if anyone else rolls Need. If so, and they're a healer, I pass so they can have it. If not, I roll Need because my off-spec needs it. Having MS/OS/Greed would let me just click the button and let the RNG take over. Most people are honest, and the few that aren't don't happen very often.

- If you really want the system to qualify piece x as "healing" and piece y as "dps", and force MS/OS choices based on gear stats vs your spec, rather than just restrict by armor type like it currently does, you should be allowed to choose which of your specs is MS at the beginning. My priest is mainly holy, and all her gear is chosen for that, but if I happen to get queued as dps, I'm still going to roll Need on holy gear over shadow gear.

- Working voice chat for WoW would be awesome regardless of LFR implementation. Everquest 2 has (or had, last year when I stopped playing for a while) a voice chat system that lets you create and join voice channels just like text channels, and certain automatic channels like guild, party, and raid channels. Very, very, importantly, when in a party, you have a slider under that player's name to adjust sound volumes. No alt-tabbing to vent, right-click -> misc -> effect -> volume -> add/edit -> slide to what you hope is good -> ok -> repeat until good. Just reach up next to their name and drag. I know WoW has some voice chat, but there's no volume control, and the interface is pretty terrible. A decent re-vamp should get it up to par.
100 Human Rogue
9690
To be honest I just put in those restrictions because they were all of the objections to this idea I had heard in the past. I figured if I could find a way around the objections, then it would be a piece of cake for something like this to actually start getting talked about seriously. Let's hope it turns out so.

There's so many other benefits that come along with it too...the voice chat, the cross-realm friend premium feature getting a highlighted use, all kinds of great things for smaller guilds, and a much more educated, entertained, and happy playerbase. It's really a win-win for everyone. Let's just hope that somebody that matters gets to see the thread and sees it that same way.
Edited by Ricardozara on 8/15/2011 12:17 AM PDT
100 Human Rogue
9690
08/15/2011 12:26 AMPosted by Andysux
treating a raid like a dungeon wont work. period.


I'm not sure you've read the first post in the thread. If you take issue with anything I've suggested please point out what individual parts of the idea you don't understand or don't think will work and we can talk about it and find a way to make it suit everyone better.
Edited by Ricardozara on 8/15/2011 7:56 AM PDT
100 Human Rogue
9690
bump
94 Night Elf Druid
8845
I so gladly approve of this and the use of the raid finder tool
100 Human Rogue
9690
08/15/2011 04:49 PMPosted by Dedicance
I so gladly approve of this and the use of the raid finder tool


Thank you for your support! We need more if we're going to ever have a prayer of getting this implemented, or at least getting a good reason why not.
85 Undead Priest
7600
This would be fun.

Completing 10 of these raids should give you a title called "The Patient and Humble <name>".
Edited by Uncorpse on 8/15/2011 8:36 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Priest
12590
Wow Siull... your just Elitism/hardcore personafied aren't you... and on top of it all your completely missing the point.

I'm not going to bother pointing out all the good/bad that this could do... you have read my previous posts (or not) on this matter.. all I have to say to you is this... your opinion is (imo) stagnant. WoW needs to stay fresh if it wishes to continue living, much less growing.... YOUR saying

08/15/2011 08:29 PMPosted by Siull
This idea is completely myopic, utterly dumb, reinforces that you can me mediocre with your own friends no matter what and do not need to actually have skill and go raid with the best people you know on your Real I.D
is just an attempt to promote the status quo and eventual death of the game.... which competitor of Blizzard's do you work for anyways?

Spirit of Cooperation- The good work together
Spirit of Compitition- The evil work against one another
Which ar you?
100 Human Rogue
9690
It's a dog eat dog world little lady, if you can't keep up just curl up in a corner.

I'm not missing anything, I understand it just fine. People whined, complained that they couldn't see content cause they finally realized that this is not Wrath anymore and saw themselves for the pathetic WoW players that they truly are; bad, incompetent, and fail.

I am the "Spirit of stop !@#$%ing and do what you need to do"


Thanks for asking.


You are the spirit of elitism that is scared to death of something like this because you won't be a special snowflake anymore.

If any Blues are reading, PLEASE, note that this guy is a prime example of what we have to wade through in an attempt to earn some progression. Please take that into account when you weigh this idea.
Edited by Ricardozara on 8/15/2011 11:37 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
5275
I think this is an amazing idea, personally. Obviously the idea needs to be refined due to the huge differences between dungeons and raids, but a truly worthwhile Raid Finder Tool would be extremely helpful to many and I'm not a good enough brainstormer to figure out where your ideas could be fine-tuned. I loved raiding back in WotLK and would love to get back into it, and have been on my mage, so I would gladly welcome streamlining and expanding the PUG-ing process with the RFT.

I actually went and scrounged up my authenticator in my pitch black room to try and provide a bump with content. =P
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