15 Man Raids!

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90 Draenei Shaman
9705
Inc 25 more pages to this thread


Did someone say thread!?!?

/appears :D

As long as nothing changes to Kara I will be content.



Kara is the ONLY thing I would like to see redone at this point. Not even redone, an extension would be amazing.

Other than that I'd love to see some new stuff.
Edited by Ceea on 8/11/2011 5:13 AM PDT
85 Night Elf Druid
5100
This is an important topic and I want to thank the community for keeping this topic troll free to this point. I wish more threads were this way.

As a side note, I think if Bliz reinstated 40 mans raids, alot of my RL friends and old guildies from vanilla would come back. I really do. So many quite the game that I knew b/c of the change when BC hit.

I also want to say not all dungeons/raids have to be the same size. Variety is the spice of life.
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
3365
6
85 Troll Mage
12470
08/10/2011 07:42 PMPosted by Zarhym
I'd actually agree that 15 players make for a pretty optimal number of raiders, in terms of the logistics of forming a raid and class representation. The task of tuning raids for three separate sizes is one you probably won't see on our radar any time soon though.

I agree if we restrict the concern to only those two issues, forming a raid, and class representation. 10-man rosters have difficulty including the right amount of extra members (past 10) to cover absences; the flexibility just isn't there. And of course, tuning raid buffs for 10-man hasn't worked, and likely won't work.

But 10-man guilds have a social character, where people treat each other as human beings, that is impossible in 25-man guilds, and may be impossible even in 15-man. For social reasons beyond anyone's control, once guilds pass a certain size, they're forced into a pattern of "recruit more people" and "tell everyone they're worthless"; this is all the guild consists of anymore. They also tend to tolerate degenerate and disgraceful behavior, including misogyny and racism, because all concerns become secondary to recruitment. It's considered a weakness to expect to like the people you're playing with, or to be offended even at the worst racism. People blame the victim for drama, or being "sensitive", instead of blaming the offender. Every 25-man raiding guild does this, no matter how benevolent and enlightened the management. It's inescapable in the format, and it's a disgrace to WoW and all of gaming. It's something that should die forever.

I don't know to what extent 15-man would include 25-man's unacceptable social problems. I only know it's something that should be considered in addition to mundane things like "logistics". A lot of people are enjoying 10-man as an escape from 25-man's social problems, even though there are significant logistics problems here. It would do no good to "solve" the logistics problem if it amounts to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
90 Worgen Death Knight
0
Everybody always posts about what they want, instead of what might be better. I run a 10 man guild. We do a 10 man because it is really hard (for us) to keep the drama to a minimum with 25 people, which lest be honest they are actually more like 30 and 13 man raids. You have to have subs for that core team and with the lockout system it is harder to get these people into runs. At least this is a problem we constantly run into. Tuesday night i sat 3 people.

I have never understood why it goes 5,10,...25? I am sure there are a ton of reasons, people could point out . My guild mates and i have discussed this several times. Just straight looking at it wouldn't 5,15 25 be better?

5mans - Simply stay what they are.

15man raid- 1-3 tanks, 3-4 heals, 7-11dps. You can split raid in to 3 equal dungeons when valor and gear is important. It will make the best use of classes, especially hybrids. Should be easier to tune the fights between 15-25.

25 mans- just stay the same.

It has always seemed funny how we arrived at the numbers we now have. I did not run 40 mans. I did not do AQ20. I started early BC when there were 10/25 mans.

It just seems wrong to have all this content in 5 man dungeons, that doesn't double into 10 man very well. Looking at Bwd/BoT, we were 2 healing after a little gearing and lost a healing spot, because we started with doing it with 3 heals.

I am having a hard time explaining this, and my friend just made a point in vent. The bigger jump should be from dungeons to raid in the amount of people, or the same, not the bigger jump between raids.

So.........

5-15--increase amount of peeps by ten.

15-25--increase in ten.

or...

5-15--increase in ten

15-20- increase 5.


Hope I am making sense I don't type well and tend to ramble.



90 Human Paladin
8350
This is actually a really good idea.

My guild regularly fields a 10 man raid group, but we usually have 15-17 players on that could go, and some players usually have to sit out. Sometimes we are able to field 2 10 man raid groups, but that doesn't happen very often.

There really isn't any reason to not do this except for the amount of time Blizz would have to take to balance the raids for a 15 man group, and it looks like Blizz has other things on their radar for now.

Maybe a 15 man raid is an option that we can have with the next expansion.
Edited by Hadoredic on 8/11/2011 7:23 AM PDT
85 Troll Hunter
10435
I think the should add 15 man raids in cataclsym.
10 is too little and 25 is too much. It's like the PERFECT number.
So will we have 10/15/25 man raids. 15 mans will drop 3 pieces of gear following the 1Gear:5Players Ratio.

Please give your thought on this i would LOVE to see 15 man raids.

Edit:10Man-120VP 25Man-140VP so 15Man-130VP

I'd actually agree that 15 players make for a pretty optimal number of raiders, in terms of the logistics of forming a raid and class representation. The task of tuning raids for three separate sizes is one you probably won't see on our radar any time soon though.


I'm far from a programmer, so I don't know if this is possible, but I'd like to see fully scalable instances between 10-25 man. So, if you went in with 10 players, 15 players, and 25 players; the instance would know and scale the difficulty and drops based on that. That's not all! Say you don't have enough one night, or you're a 10-man guild that always has 1-2 more people that would like to go. Too many for 10 man and far too few for 25 man. But if the instance could say, "Oh, 12 people, ok. I got this." And scale for that, that would be pretty cool.

I'd also like to see solo instances as well. Conan does it. And it can be more about exploration and discovery than necessarily boss fights. Need something else to do in-game. Move archeology into these solo instances. I want Tol'vir fragments? I go into the lost city on solo, fight mobs and explore the instance to find fragments and learn about the race some more. And I'm sure there's even more that could be done after sitting down and talking about it in depth.

Either way, Archeology needs help, and I need something to do in-game. Something different. I just think that would be pretty fun if done right.
85 Undead Rogue
10275
good idea, makes sense to me, would also allow 25m guilds to break down into 10 / 15 if they wish, 25m break down leaves 5 out of the picture atm :S
11 Dwarf Priest
40
08/11/2011 05:59 AMPosted by Morsk
But 10-man guilds have a social character, where people treat each other as human beings, that is impossible in 25-man guilds, and may be impossible even in 15-man. For social reasons beyond anyone's control, once guilds pass a certain size, they're forced into a pattern of "recruit more people" and "tell everyone they're worthless"; this is all the guild consists of anymore. They also tend to tolerate degenerate and disgraceful behavior, including misogyny and racism, because all concerns become secondary to recruitment. It's considered a weakness to expect to like the people you're playing with, or to be offended even at the worst racism. People blame the victim for drama, or being "sensitive", instead of blaming the offender. Every 25-man raiding guild does this, no matter how benevolent and enlightened the management. It's inescapable in the format, and it's a disgrace to WoW and all of gaming. It's something that should die forever.

That's a pretty amazing generalization.

Whether those traits persist in a guild depend 100% on the members, not on the size of the guild.

ANYBODY who has tried to raid heroic progression in 10 man knows that it pretty quickly devolves into the exact same environment as 25 quickly, as you constantly recruit flavor of the month specs (to beat certain encounters) and have constant pressure to replace bads. Conversely, there is no shortage of socially-focused 25 man guilds that are fun and friendly. Of course, the exact opposite exists as well (i.e. toxic 25 man environments and friendly 10 mans).

Sorry you've had terrible experienced, but don't paint every guild with the same brush. There is no "magic number" where everybody goes all Lord of the Flies.
Edited by Pappas on 8/11/2011 8:10 AM PDT
85 Troll Mage
10790
Would love to see 15 man raids. Currently we run a 10 man group with about 8-9 people sitting. We just don't have the roster for 25 and not quite enough to make a 2nd 10 man group.

It's not likely they will tune for 3 different raid sizes so to me they should eliminate the 10 man just because 25 still gives room to grow and bond with more people in your group/guild as opposed to the closed off feeling 10 mans give you.
85 Undead Rogue
3810
I think the should add 15 man raids in cataclsym.
10 is too little and 25 is too much. It's like the PERFECT number.
So will we have 10/15/25 man raids. 15 mans will drop 3 pieces of gear following the 1Gear:5Players Ratio.

Please give your thought on this i would LOVE to see 15 man raids.

Edit:10Man-120VP 25Man-140VP so 15Man-130VP

I'd actually agree that 15 players make for a pretty optimal number of raiders, in terms of the logistics of forming a raid and class representation. The task of tuning raids for three separate sizes is one you probably won't see on our radar any time soon though.


How about tuning dungeons for 6 or 7? This would balance your dps to heals and tank ratios to that of end game and could probably take a huge chunk out of the dps queue times?
90 Worgen Death Knight
0
ow about tuning dungeons for 6 or 7? This would balance your dps to heals and tank ratios to that of end game and could probably take a huge chunk out of the dps queue times?




Double 6 or 7 and you more than 10 less than 15. People get left out. The raids , in my opinion should at least be multiples of the 5, so they can be broken down or scaled up equally.
85 Night Elf Warrior
0
Question....

Why 25 man raids?

10 doesn't go evenly into 25 and 25 can't be divided into even groups of 10.

Why not 5, 10, and 20?

20 is 4 groups of 5 or 2 groups of 10.
2 raids of 10 can diverge from one raid of 20.

10-man raid is to a 20-man raid what 5-man groups are to 10-man raids.

So...why 25-man raids?
85 Goblin Warrior
6470

I'd actually agree that 15 players make for a pretty optimal number of raiders, in terms of the logistics of forming a raid and class representation. The task of tuning raids for three separate sizes is one you probably won't see on our radar any time soon though.


I'm far from a programmer, so I don't know if this is possible, but I'd like to see fully scalable instances between 10-25 man. So, if you went in with 10 players, 15 players, and 25 players; the instance would know and scale the difficulty and drops based on that. That's not all! Say you don't have enough one night, or you're a 10-man guild that always has 1-2 more people that would like to go. Too many for 10 man and far too few for 25 man. But if the instance could say, "Oh, 12 people, ok. I got this." And scale for that, that would be pretty cool.

I'd also like to see solo instances as well. Conan does it. And it can be more about exploration and discovery than necessarily boss fights. Need something else to do in-game. Move archeology into these solo instances. I want Tol'vir fragments? I go into the lost city on solo, fight mobs and explore the instance to find fragments and learn about the race some more. And I'm sure there's even more that could be done after sitting down and talking about it in depth.

Either way, Archeology needs help, and I need something to do in-game. Something different. I just think that would be pretty fun if done right.


I've already stated how I feel about the raid sizes but, I love this solo dungeon idea for archaeology! Do it!
69 Gnome Rogue
480
08/10/2011 07:42 PMPosted by Zarhym
I'd actually agree that 15 players make for a pretty optimal number of raiders, in terms of the logistics of forming a raid and class representation. The task of tuning raids for three separate sizes is one you probably won't see on our radar any time soon though.


I think it's something that you should move up on your to-do list. I can't see a single downfall to it.
90 Dwarf Paladin
13855
I think the should add 15 man raids in cataclsym.
10 is too little and 25 is too much. It's like the PERFECT number.
So will we have 10/15/25 man raids. 15 mans will drop 3 pieces of gear following the 1Gear:5Players Ratio.

Please give your thought on this i would LOVE to see 15 man raids.

Edit:10Man-120VP 25Man-140VP so 15Man-130VP

I'd actually agree that 15 players make for a pretty optimal number of raiders, in terms of the logistics of forming a raid and class representation. The task of tuning raids for three separate sizes is one you probably won't see on our radar any time soon though.


But how do you get people to choose 15 mans over 10 mans? You killed 25 raiding by making it pointless to take the extra trouble to organize and control 24 other people by taking away their getting better gear.

Why would people decide to run 15 mans where it is more likely that someone will do something that will cause a wipe than in 10 mans, and it takes longer to get everyone back together and buffed to try again?

Before considering 15 mans how about giving a reason to run 25 mans again.
69 Gnome Rogue
480
08/11/2011 09:43 AMPosted by Cocha
I'd also like to see solo instances as well. Conan does it. And it can be more about exploration and discovery than necessarily boss fights. Need something else to do in-game. Move archeology into these solo instances. I want Tol'vir fragments? I go into the lost city on solo, fight mobs and explore the instance to find fragments and learn about the race some more. And I'm sure there's even more that could be done after sitting down and talking about it in depth.


Win.
85 Undead Priest
7600
More like 40 man, if they make the LFR work like LFD!
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