15 Man Raids!

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90 Worgen Death Knight
0
Question....

Why 25 man raids?

10 doesn't go evenly into 25 and 25 can't be divided into even groups of 10.

Why not 5, 10, and 20?

20 is 4 groups of 5 or 2 groups of 10.
2 raids of 10 can diverge from one raid of 20.

10-man raid is to a 20-man raid what 5-man groups are to 10-man raids.

So...why 25-man raids?


Exactly what I am saying in my post above . However i say 15 man, because ten man seems to fall short on classes, buffs, or what have you. We dont run with a warlock. I wish we could. The extra 5 seems to round out better.
I am also advocating the removal of 10man, for 15/25man raids.
I think 12 would actually be a great number. Just add 2 dps because it's already hard enough to recruit tanks and healers. For casual guilds that struggle with attendance, it's also easier to pug dps than tanks/heals.

5-man dungeons can be retuned for groups of 6 too for consistency - add one more dps to each group and shorten the queues.
85 Night Elf Warrior
0
I'd also like to see solo instances as well. Conan does it. And it can be more about exploration and discovery than necessarily boss fights. Need something else to do in-game. Move archeology into these solo instances. I want Tol'vir fragments? I go into the lost city on solo, fight mobs and explore the instance to find fragments and learn about the race some more. And I'm sure there's even more that could be done after sitting down and talking about it in depth.

Either way, Archeology needs help, and I need something to do in-game. Something different. I just think that would be pretty fun if done right.


That'd be kind of cool. 25% chance of Dungeon location getting flagged as an archaeology zone and having multiple extra fragment nodes (like instead of only 3 dig sites, like 5-8 of them), and a couple "bosses" with the associated races bonus pieces as drops. The monsters inside said dungeon would be the NPC equivalent of "Heirlooms" where they scale based on your level so it's always going to be a challenge but nothing too extreme (I'd even go so far as to say have them scale based on your equipped item level!).
85 Blood Elf Priest
5290
08/11/2011 08:09 AMPosted by Pappas
ANYBODY who has tried to raid heroic progression in 10 man knows that it pretty quickly devolves into the exact same environment as 25 quickly, as you constantly recruit flavor of the month specs (to beat certain encounters) and have constant pressure to replace bads


Couldn't have said it better myself.
90 Human Mage
12960
I think the should add 15 man raids in cataclsym.
10 is too little and 25 is too much. It's like the PERFECT number.
So will we have 10/15/25 man raids. 15 mans will drop 3 pieces of gear following the 1Gear:5Players Ratio.

Please give your thought on this i would LOVE to see 15 man raids.

Edit:10Man-120VP 25Man-140VP so 15Man-130VP

I'd actually agree that 15 players make for a pretty optimal number of raiders, in terms of the logistics of forming a raid and class representation. The task of tuning raids for three separate sizes is one you probably won't see on our radar any time soon though.


*ONE* raid size - 15 man
85 Night Elf Mage
SPG
7835
08/10/2011 07:46 PMPosted by Killercaitie
As long as nothing changes to Kara I will be content.


Also, I like my 10 man raids. D:
90 Human Paladin
15265
Obviously someone wasnt around in the Vanilla ZG 15 man raid days.

They wernt that great.
85 Troll Hunter
5750
08/10/2011 07:55 PMPosted by Diabolickahl
Why is it that some random persons thread about 15 man raids gets a blue post but when i posted this i got ignored? i think 15 man is a great size for raids


It's a nice size, but the problem is that most of the work that goes into a raid is in three areas:

* Assets (art, scripting, etc.)
* Mechanics (the core fight planning and implementation)
* Tuning (balancing healing requirements vs. dps; mobility vs. stand-and-deliver, etc.)

That last part has to be re-done for every size of raid you want to do. So, if you think of tuning as 1/3 of the process, then when you add a second raid (10/25), you don't have to do the assets again, and the mechanics are usually the same. But, the tuning work has to start over from scratch. That means that you now have 1/4 asset work, 1/4 mechanics work and 1/2 tuning work taking a total of 33% longer to develop a raid than it did before. Also keep in mind that you have to TEST both modes and so that gives you even more impact from having two modes.

All of this means that having 10 and 25 man raids means more dev time and slower releases.

If you want a 15 man mode, then you need to do one of two things: add it on as a third or scrap one of the others. You can't reasonably scrap one of the others. 25 man raiding is bread and butter for very large guilds, and provides an opportunity for a larger chunk of the guild's playerbase to take part.

10 man is all about smaller guilds, and if you up the low-end number, you cut off a lot of guilds that just can't field 15 raiders every time.

So, you're really asking for 3 raid sizes, which now increases tuning to 3/5 of development time and further expands the time to release by at least 25%, not counting the extra testing.

Think very carefully about that, and consider what you really want out of WoW...
85 Night Elf Druid
5100
Obviously someone wasnt around in the Vanilla ZG 15 man raid days.

They wernt that great.


Um, ZG was a 20 man and it was PuGd often in vanilla...
90 Night Elf Warrior
10825
Obviously someone wasnt around in the Vanilla ZG 15 man raid days.

They wernt that great.


ZG was never 15-man. The only max 15-man dungeon was UBRS, and yes it was very great because it had no lockout and everyone ran that dungeon all the time.
90 Dwarf Hunter
16835
I think 15 would probably be better than 10 man raid because it is usually a raid wipe if 1 or 2 person die in 10 man raid. However, if there are extra 5 people (dps/heal), we probably can clear the boss just in time.

From the developer point of view, I think it is safe to say that the raid will be relatively easier to adjust between 25raid and 15raid.

Just saying.



If they tuned 15m with the comp of fielding 2 tanks, 4/5 healers, and 8/9 DPS, then they could easily tune damage, raid walls, etc between the two which is generally the largest disparity in the difficulties.

15m could have largely similar healing and tank requirements of 25, just tuned differently on the DPS scale. It would be immensely easier on the raid design team to tune bosses that way...
Edited by Bullettime on 8/11/2011 11:56 AM PDT
90 Human Paladin
15265
Obviously someone wasnt around in the Vanilla ZG 15 man raid days.

They wernt that great.


Um, ZG was a 20 man and it was PuGd often in vanilla...


Hmm was it 20? I forget.

Though running it so many times ruined the current one for me
85 Draenei Hunter
8415
I think the should add 15 man raids in cataclsym.
10 is too little and 25 is too much. It's like the PERFECT number.
So will we have 10/15/25 man raids. 15 mans will drop 3 pieces of gear following the 1Gear:5Players Ratio.

Please give your thought on this i would LOVE to see 15 man raids.

Edit:10Man-120VP 25Man-140VP so 15Man-130VP

I'd actually agree that 15 players make for a pretty optimal number of raiders, in terms of the logistics of forming a raid and class representation. The task of tuning raids for three separate sizes is one you probably won't see on our radar any time soon though.


<gasp>

Agreed times a billion.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6480
OP Blizzard should hire you. Honestly that's the best simple idea that would fix a lot of things in the game. Most of the time there are 5 players that get left out in guilds that do 10 mans.
85 Undead Death Knight
10350
Hmm what i was also thinking is that they should also fix that very annoying Dungeon Journal Bug where you cant click on anything in it i like to use it to for a quick review if our RL says something to quick
85 Undead Death Knight
10350
08/11/2011 10:37 AMPosted by Kiraqt
Couldn't have said it better myself.


I'm pretty sure i can :P
85 Blood Elf Priest
7705
08/11/2011 12:02 AMPosted by Robokapp
I don't think they'll ever go back to 40 man raids and they would be too much work to set one up


as a recruitment officer for a 25man guild, i'll gladly recruit for a 40man guild.

/shrug. I'll put in the work to raid the size I love. we have great officers who are dedicated and interested in large-scale raiding. we'd do 40mans in a heartbeat.

Even then it would be very difficult and it would also be hard to manage, its already hell manage a 25 man 40 mans would just be plain horrible
90 Undead Death Knight
14505

I'd actually agree that 15 players make for a pretty optimal number of raiders, in terms of the logistics of forming a raid and class representation. The task of tuning raids for three separate sizes is one you probably won't see on our radar any time soon though.


Would you happen to know (and be allowed to share with us) if the Dev's had considered dropping 10man or 25man in favor of 15man? That way there would still only be 2 different sizes to configure.
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