Dragonwrath and YOU

wrong. it does do damage. it just doesnt get shatter

the rest seems like a pvp fix

22:33:15> Siiz casts Deep Freeze at Raider's Training Dummy.
22:33:15> Siiz Deep Freeze failed. Raider's Training Dummy was immune.
22:33:15> Siiz casts Deep Freeze at Raider's Training Dummy.
22:33:15> Siiz's Fingers of Frost (1) diminishes.
22:33:15> Siiz's Deep Freeze hits Raider's Training Dummy for 64248 Frost.(Critical)
22:33:16> Siiz casts Deep Freeze at Raider's Training Dummy.
22:33:16> Siiz's Deep Freeze hits Raider's Training Dummy for 31459 Frost. _____ <-proc


Question... Looking at that line it appears as though the cast was duplicated not just the spell landing...

Maybe i just don't understand how a frost mage functions but the idea that the cast would be copied not just the spell landing has potential changes to how we evaluate things. Namely is it effected by interupts/spell pushback?


those two cast are just because of the way DF works when it hits non stunable targets

22:33:15> Siiz's Deep Freeze hits Raider's Training Dummy for 64248 Frost.(Critical)
22:33:16> Siiz casts Deep Freeze at Raider's Training Dummy.
22:33:16> Siiz's Deep Freeze hits Raider's Training Dummy for 31459 Frost.

is the proc's 'cast'
Edited by Olo on 8/13/2011 11:48 AM PDT
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85 Draenei Mage
12090
I don't think so. The proc is generated at the end of the player cast of the procced spell. If the procced spell was interupted, then the proc will never happen. If the interupt is late, the proc would still go off since it a) has a zero cast time and b) is treated as a proc (similar to those damage procs from trinkets, weapon effects, and bow enchants).
Edited by Delritha on 8/13/2011 11:57 AM PDT
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85 Worgen Warlock
0
Are copied spells causing DR? Cone of Cold freeze and Frost nova, among others.
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85 Draenei Mage
12090
that he would have to test in a pvp environment. Up until now, he has only been testing on the target dummies.
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90 Draenei Mage
0


I see. But that is still not how it should be. The proc should be an exact duplicate of the spell. The whole basis of frost's viability is crit's with mastery. The staff will be better by a factor of 2 on arcane if they don't fix this.

it would be insane in pvp


I don't understand why people say this. Because i am getting the staff i can say what i am going to anyway. Let's just take into account how little people are going to get the staff. Then take into account how many PvE'ers wouldn't even care about PvP despite having the staff. I know i still won't go PvP even with the staff. THEN take into account how few of those willing to go to PvP will join serious arena teams.

I would understand SOME tuning, but blizzard wouldn't make the staff useless (relatively speaking) for frost in PvE for the sake of a couple mages upsetting the balance. I'm not even mentioning how this won't be that way for warlocks, and warlocks are just as good in high-end PvP as frost mages. That's honestly a laughable reason. This will get fixed.
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[quote][quote]

I don't understand why people say this. Because i am getting the staff i can say what i am going to anyway. Let's just take into account how little people are going to get the staff. Then take into account how many PvE'ers wouldn't even care about PvP despite having the staff. I know i still won't go PvP even with the staff. THEN take into account how few of those willing to go to PvP will join serious arena teams.

I would understand SOME tuning, but blizzard wouldn't make the staff useless (relatively speaking) for frost in PvE for the sake of a couple mages upsetting the balance. I'm not even mentioning how this won't be that way for warlocks, and warlocks are just as good in high-end PvP as frost mages. That's honestly a laughable reason. This will get fixed.


I think you are severely underestimating both the power of the staff and the amount of spellcleave teams that will pop up by the end of the season. For as long as there have been legendaries there have been pvp imbalances. Will the legendary make a poor pvp'er good? Probably not. But I guarantee you there will be plenty of "Dragonwrath Gibbing" videos appearing shortly.

Despite this, I have a feeling there will be several hotfixes to the staff shortly once Blizzard starts getting feedback on how it's working live. I guarantee you if frost mages are getting the shaft in terms of dps benefit from the staff it will be rectified.
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90 Human Mage
14235
I apologize if I'm answering questions already answered. I am just going down the thread and quoting as I go.

08/13/2011 08:11 AMPosted by Zothen
Have you noticed if the copied spell still costs mana, or is it truly a "free" spell? ("free" as in "beer")


Staff procs are free of mana.

08/13/2011 09:48 AMPosted by Shisai
It will also be interesting if extra mf tick will lower mana fiend. Since it copies the spell tick as opposed to the seemingly non-critting but dmg mirroring 'wrath of tarecgosa' arcane spell.


This is possible, since the procs interact with talents (FoF, etc)

08/13/2011 11:31 AMPosted by Smo
Can you clarify if the spell is copied when it is cast, or when it hits?


When it hits.

08/13/2011 11:45 AMPosted by Shisai
Question... Looking at that line it appears as though the cast was duplicated not just the spell landing...


Deep freeze works very different since it has a PvP aspect to it. The "Immune message after the first cast is the spell checking if the target is permanently immune to stuns, and then recasts the deep freeze that does damage, so it shows up as 2 spell casts instead of one. Since the staff only procs off the damage portion, there will be 3 casting messages in the combat log.

08/13/2011 12:08 PMPosted by Shapow
Are copied spells causing DR? Cone of Cold freeze and Frost nova, among others.


I have not tested this yet, but my guess would be yes.
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85 Troll Priest
13845


it would be insane in pvp


Let's just take into account how little people are going to get the staff. Then take into account how many PvE'ers wouldn't even care about PvP despite having the staff.


Yes, let us take into account how many people are going to get the staff. The top ~700 guilds in the world will pump out a new staff every other week on average. If we assume this tier lasts for an additional two months (low end est), thats 2800 stalves that will appear. OFC this number will continue to go up the later we get in the tier, with nerfs to HMs and more guilds getting gear to kill more heroic bosses each week. Not to disprect Siiz or anyone else who is getting the staff, but this is probably the quickest (easiest?) legendary to obtain.
Edited by Kahlan on 8/13/2011 3:25 PM PDT
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85 Human Mage
10015
[quote][quote]

I don't understand why people say this. Because i am getting the staff i can say what i am going to anyway. Let's just take into account how little people are going to get the staff. Then take into account how many PvE'ers wouldn't even care about PvP despite having the staff. I know i still won't go PvP even with the staff. THEN take into account how few of those willing to go to PvP will join serious arena teams.

I would understand SOME tuning, but blizzard wouldn't make the staff useless (relatively speaking) for frost in PvE for the sake of a couple mages upsetting the balance. I'm not even mentioning how this won't be that way for warlocks, and warlocks are just as good in high-end PvP as frost mages. That's honestly a laughable reason. This will get fixed.


I think you are severely underestimating both the power of the staff and the amount of spellcleave teams that will pop up by the end of the season. For as long as there have been legendaries there have been pvp imbalances. Will the legendary make a poor pvp'er good? Probably not. But I guarantee you there will be plenty of "Dragonwrath Gibbing" videos appearing shortly.

Despite this, I have a feeling there will be several hotfixes to the staff shortly once Blizzard starts getting feedback on how it's working live. I guarantee you if frost mages are getting the shaft in terms of dps benefit from the staff it will be rectified.


Yep, there will be plenty of legendary cleaves. You may not see many at the top of the ladders, but I can assure you that it will make casual 1800 players into 2200 players easily. And you'll definitely see a bunch in RBG's since you can tend to hide in the back and turret a lot easier than in arenas. Deep Freeze shatters should be able to do 100k+ in one global if you're lucky, assuming the copied spells will be affected by shatter and mastery.
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90 Tauren Druid
7220
Thank you for doing this. :)
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85 Human Warlock
11920
Most useful thread on this forum ever.
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85 Troll Shaman
8875
Can anyone comment on how this affects/will affect masteries such as elemental shamans? Will an elemental overload proc proc the legendary? Will the legendary effect proc elemental overload?
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90 Human Mage
14235
08/13/2011 04:57 PMPosted by Rixan
Can anyone comment on how this affects/will affect masteries such as elemental shamans? Will an elemental overload proc proc the legendary? Will the legendary effect proc elemental overload?


This is a question you will have to wait for until an elemental shaman obtains the staff. The staff can and will possibly interact with all classes very differently.


edit: also updated the DOT portion of the proc in the OP (some people were confused by my wording, so it's fixed)

Instead of coping the spell like it does with DD spells or instant, DOTs are different. If the staff procs on a DOT tick, instead of casting the same "spell", it will cast Wrath of Tarecgosa, and match the damage of the DOT tick (not the whole damage of the DOT over its duration)
Edited by Siiz on 8/13/2011 5:16 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Mage
18600
wrong. it does do damage. it just doesnt get shatter

the rest seems like a pvp fix

22:33:15> Siiz casts Deep Freeze at Raider's Training Dummy.
22:33:15> Siiz Deep Freeze failed. Raider's Training Dummy was immune.
22:33:15> Siiz casts Deep Freeze at Raider's Training Dummy.
22:33:15> Siiz's Fingers of Frost (1) diminishes.
22:33:15> Siiz's Deep Freeze hits Raider's Training Dummy for 64248 Frost.(Critical)
22:33:16> Siiz casts Deep Freeze at Raider's Training Dummy.
22:33:16> Siiz's Deep Freeze hits Raider's Training Dummy for 31459 Frost. _____ <-proc


Question... Looking at that line it appears as though the cast was duplicated not just the spell landing...

Maybe i just don't understand how a frost mage functions but the idea that the cast would be copied not just the spell landing has potential changes to how we evaluate things. Namely is it effected by interupts/spell pushback?


The mechanics of deep freeze is that you have two spells essentially being cast when it's being used for damage. You have deep freeze, the player spell, which is cast first, then found immune. When the immunity is found, deep freeze immunity state is checked and then fires a second spell, the one that actually does damage. The staff is apparently grabbing the damage state spell and using it. The log you quoted has in order: player spell, immune, damage state, fingers of frost consumed, damage done, staff proc damage spell, staff proc damage done.

Given the staff apparently duplicates on damage done, it would have no impact on pushbacks and such.
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85 Tauren Paladin
13215


I think you are severely underestimating both the power of the staff and the amount of spellcleave teams that will pop up by the end of the season. For as long as there have been legendaries there have been pvp imbalances. Will the legendary make a poor pvp'er good? Probably not. But I guarantee you there will be plenty of "Dragonwrath Gibbing" videos appearing shortly.

Despite this, I have a feeling there will be several hotfixes to the staff shortly once Blizzard starts getting feedback on how it's working live. I guarantee you if frost mages are getting the shaft in terms of dps benefit from the staff it will be rectified.


Yep, there will be plenty of legendary cleaves. You may not see many at the top of the ladders, but I can assure you that it will make casual 1800 players into 2200 players easily. And you'll definitely see a bunch in RBG's since you can tend to hide in the back and turret a lot easier than in arenas. Deep Freeze shatters should be able to do 100k+ in one global if you're lucky, assuming the copied spells will be affected by shatter and mastery.


Arcane Mages will have the potential to drop 4 AB's into a target instantly doing an AB -> PoM -> AB with staff procs on each casted AB. You will basically have a 10% chance to put 3 AB's into your target, or a 1% chance to just flat out kill your target.
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85 Goblin Priest
4560
for arcane blast, unless I made an error somewhere
I counted 963 spell_cast_start arcane blast events
and 1076 arcane blast spell_damage events
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90 Draenei Mage
0
While PvP concerns are understandable, a legendary is purely a PvE thing. If you honestly are going through months of grinding just to own in arena for the next couple months, then hell, you deserve it. PvP should not at all affect how the staff behaves for certain classes unless a huge mechanic is exploited (which there isn't.) Change it so charges aren't consumed by the proc, problem solved.
Edited by Switch on 8/13/2011 6:52 PM PDT
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Your dismissive feelings on pvp aren’t shared by everyone. It seems like blizzard put a lot of effort into designing the proc and I would bet its working as they intend it to. They may change it, they may not.
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90 Worgen Priest
10880
Siiz, your toons eyes look crazy !@# tired, i can only imagine thats you irl. You have put a commendable amount of effort on this and i have to agree this has become my favorite post in quite a long while.

Serious question though, how much sleep have you gotten since you completed the staff?
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