Raid Leader/Guild Leader roles assistance

3 Human Mage
0
Just wondering peoples opinion on the following.

Role of the Guild Leader

Role of the Raid Leader

When raiding with more people than a 10 man (not enough for a 25man). What is the best way to fairly include all members (usually 15 people, 4 DPS, 1 heal) in the raid. Also, where a delineation between the GM and the RL on deciding who should go to the raids.

Basic issue - RL (me) is stating the requirements for raiding (gear, attendance times, etc) however the GM is continually stating that certain people (long term guild members) are exempt from the rule and should be given deferential spots if they are online. These people are not consistent attendees like the other raiders but have the virtue of "seniority".

We have the T11 raids on farm and working in FL right now and the "non-senior" members are the ones that got us to the farm status. The majority of the raiders are good people and the option to leave the guild is a last resort and would prefer to avoid that.

Could use some advice on this please as I have spoken with the GM before but it still is not sinking in the way a raid should work, etc. etc..
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3 Human Mage
0
You posted twice with no suggestions :) hehe

If I knew exactly how raiding should be I wouldnt be asking here.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6935
Sounds like a crappy situation to me. Who cares how long they've been with the guild? You say "You have to have A B C to raid", then anyone who doesn't meet A B C shouldn't get an invite, period. If your GM won't listen to that, that sounds like an indication that this guild's concept of raiding doesn't mesh with yours.
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3 Human Mage
0
I agree that it may not mesh but what we currently have for a majority of the raiders does mesh because usually 10-11 of the regulars (not the senior people) are on so we raid as normal. It is the times when the "seniority" is on that issues occur.

The thing is that it usually occurs once a week.. the main problem I see is most of the people are fine and if I leave or step down a majority have indicated that they would leave the guild or no longer raid. I couldnt do that to the guild.. so yeah.. I am in a difficult spot occasionally. :)

Is there a "definition" of the raid leader vs guild leader roles someplace?



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10 Blood Elf Paladin
40
I agree that it may not mesh but what we currently have for a majority of the raiders does mesh because usually 10-11 of the regulars (not the senior people) are on so we raid as normal. It is the times when the "seniority" is on that issues occur.

The thing is that it usually occurs once a week.. the main problem I see is most of the people are fine and if I leave or step down a majority have indicated that they would leave the guild or no longer raid. I couldnt do that to the guild.. so yeah.. I am in a difficult spot occasionally. :)

Is there a "definition" of the raid leader vs guild leader roles someplace?


If the GM is stubborn about the rule and you have such power over many raiders staying in the guild you could use that as leverage, especially if you are shown active support from the majority of your raiders.
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90 Troll Hunter
15440
Imo, Guild Leader/GM is the spearhead of a guild who may occasionally need to acts as a Liaison Officer to facilitate coordination with the various Raid Leaders; stamp down/resolves internal conflicts and pave way for the smooth running of each raid, basically fosters an environment whereby it's conducive to conduct raids, maybe allow some privileges like guild repairs.

Raid Leader is the one that does the raiding and organizing proper, plan and improvise strats suitable for his raid combination, deciding suitable time/dates, core/bench raiders criteria, analysis of performance, looting system and recruitment.

I'm guessing you do have your set of criteria but the GM is asking you to bend it for the sake of the 'seniors'; seems to me you gotta bring that 10-11 out of the guild in order to raid without the interference of your GM and 'seniors'. Otherwise, you may risk having a group of frustrated good performers and they may ultimately leave due to the unjust treatment.
Edited by Çrùx on 8/11/2011 1:41 AM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6935
08/10/2011 06:54 PMPosted by Nometra
Is there a "definition" of the raid leader vs guild leader roles someplace?


Short version? No.

Different guilds would "define" what they want from these roles differently. The only definition that matters is how YOUR guild defines it.
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It sounds like these "Seniority" aren't there very often and when they are there, it might not be more than one or two people. It also sounds like the Seniority aren't terrible players who will insta-wipe your raid group, but that they aren't quite up to the standard you've set. Is that a correct take away?

If so, try rotating each of them in for ONE boss fight and then rotating them back out. (If it's progression you can set a number of attempts - ie X person is going to come for 10 attempts and then we're going to rotate some people.) If your core has a hard time swallowing the idea, sell them on the fact that your raid will need backups from time to time and that your backups need to have a basic understanding of the fights. If at all possible, never have more than one back-up raider in your raid at any given time.

Also, while I know this isn't ideal, if those Seniority raiders are not coming prepared and there is some easy fix, help them fix it. Are they missing enchants? Bring them a scroll. Are they gemmed incorrectly? Get them in a party/voice channel and help them fix it. Gear a bit behind? Show them where to get bettter gear or run troll heroics with them. If you're going to have these people around and you don't want to leave your guild or start drama, then work with what you have and make the best out of them you can. Bring them within tolerable carrying range and let them have a "taste" of raiding, without letting them take over your group.

Along the same lines, if they are so far behind your core group as to be a significant burden, you could also try setting up raid nights that are specifically aimed toward those Seniority folks, where they have priority on spots. Go raid prior tier content with them and get them the gear/experience they need to not be a drain on your core group.

Here's a bit about my background with roster juggling. We run a 25 man guild with a roster of 34 people. Clearly, not all 34 can be in raid at once and there are a variety of strengths and weaknesses among the team members. If our top geared and performing players are performing at a level 10, our roster goes down to a few I'd rank as a 6. We're always rotating people based on a number of factors, such as personal strengths, comp, gear/experience needs, overall performance, etc. We don't ever sit a player for an entire night. That being said, our raid leader has full discretion over who is in or out of comp at any given moment. He keeps a spreadsheet to ensure that no one person sits for an unfair amount of time. It's worked for us very well. I the year since our guild has been doing progression raiding, we've only had 2 people leave our raid team and go join another team. People seem to see the system as fair and balanced, which keeps our raiders happy. :)
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90 Night Elf Druid
5980
If you're looking for progression then this is a terrible way to go about it, because you're letting the old guys slack and screwing over the new guys. You'll end up with old-timers scooping up good loot, and a revolving door of mediocre to bad players filling in the rest of the raid. But if you're just trying to mess around with raiding, or would rather have the 'old guard' favored, it's a good setup.

The guild leader sets the direction for the guild and players decide if it's what they like, you're not going to be able to tell the GM 'Rule 95c says that we can't run raids this way'.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
6780
Often this type of issue is viewed at people are in one group or the other group (senior, good, bad, there often, not often, whatever). In most cases the reality is that people are not all the same and there are levels to each aspect of a person, such person shows up a lot, but performs medium of the pack, plus other factors.

What your (the guild leaders) are probably trying to do right now is make those decisions based on impressions, what you can remember, what does and does stands out in your mind about each person. And so your making decisions based on partial truths and well as opinion.
That is a sure way to cause emotional turmoil.

My suggestion is to make a rank for people whom are going to get priority before others for some things. And make those things measurable (predictable) so that anyone that does a bit of effort would normally come to the same conclusion. Examples would be a stated and measured raid attendance of say on time, and until end of raid 2 out of 3 raids per week averaged over a six week period. They drop below that for ANY reason, they drop in rank until their numbers for the last six weeks comes up.

What this does is it takes a chunk of the subjectivity out of the process for the leaders and it also give clearer understanding and tasks for others on where they need to be for the priority rank.
Right now if you have categorization in guild of: short time, better raiders go first (which you indicated in some ways in your post) then things are to subjective and undefined for people to be able to agree on, and that is making stress and probably some bad feelings all around that really could be reduced.
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70 Draenei Paladin
12385
Just wondering peoples opinion on the following.

Role of the Guild Leader

Role of the Raid Leader

When raiding with more people than a 10 man (not enough for a 25man). What is the best way to fairly include all members (usually 15 people, 4 DPS, 1 heal) in the raid. Also, where a delineation between the GM and the RL on deciding who should go to the raids.

Basic issue - RL (me) is stating the requirements for raiding (gear, attendance times, etc) however the GM is continually stating that certain people (long term guild members) are exempt from the rule and should be given deferential spots if they are online. These people are not consistent attendees like the other raiders but have the virtue of "seniority".

We have the T11 raids on farm and working in FL right now and the "non-senior" members are the ones that got us to the farm status. The majority of the raiders are good people and the option to leave the guild is a last resort and would prefer to avoid that.

Could use some advice on this please as I have spoken with the GM before but it still is not sinking in the way a raid should work, etc. etc..


There isn't really ONE definition, because each guild defines this themselves. It doesn't matter what anyone could define these as, because it wouldn't necessarily even apply to your situation.

You might TRY to make it apply, you might TRY to put these definitions upon your Guild Leader, but it seems pretty clear since you already indicated how you've tried to convey your points, that some quotes from anon people on the forums are most likely not going to help your case.

If you've made standards for attending your raids and the guild leader is circumventing this completely despite your efforts for him to stop, then just leave. Take that raid group with you and go start your own guild and be the GL/RL and run it how you want and define those roles as you see fit.

You've already addressed a breakdown in the system between you and him. You can either attempt to repair it and make it work, or leave. No definition is going to save you from this mess.
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3 Human Mage
0
Thank you all for the comments. I really appreciate the feedback.

Overall, the "seniors" are not bad players.. they are not as well geared as the normal raiders but they are "barely geared" except for the randoms drops that they won. While setting up gear nights/raid nights for them is a great idea they are not on consistently enough to fill the groups.

The overall issues stems from the fact regarding the GM dictating rules that put other raiders (the seniors) above the ones that are constantly there. All these people are of the same rank (raider). It may come down to leaving the guild with these people but that is a last resort item as (we have about 40 people) almost all are super casual and the guild would end up falling apart (something I do not want to be the start of).

I will see about continuing but as others pointed out... it does end up causing some grief issues since the seniors are basically riding the tailcoats of the ones who did the work to get there. Rock and a hard place :)

Example (that will get me the GM stink eye) - I DID bump a senior for a raider who is always there...will see what happens. (they both accepted the invite)

Thank you again, I really do appreciate it!!
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If you are raiding, then you want the better raiders. Better raiders i.e. those that fulfill their role better, stay alive longer, more raid aware. If 'senior' members don't fit this criteria, I wouldn't bring them in favor of someone who's more competent.

Any guild where this sort of 'special favor' treatment goes on is not one anyone should have to put up with. If this continues long enough, your newer but better raiders will get put off, leave, and you will be down to nothing but those so called 'senior' members. It's really a sooner or later thing. If your guild raids hit a deadend there, you know the cause of it. I'll quote what you said:

08/10/2011 05:43 PMPosted by Nometra
working in FL right now and the "non-senior" members are the ones that got us to the farm status.


Favoring people that are 'senior' over those that help guild progress more will not help anyone. Not them, not the raid group they're in, and certainly not your idiotic GM. Favoring seniors sends to the whole guild a negative message. It tells new players and your raiders that competence and skill alone won't give them a raiding spot, which might lead to some bootlicking on their part, and that no matter how good they are there's a chance they might not be picked for raids. It also tells the older members that they can do whatever the !@#$ they want as long as they have the 'virtue of seniority'. This gets them expecting more of this kind of treatment. All this will inevitable cause a degeneration of your guild spirit eventually. If you want your guild to last, this favoritism has to stop. My guild is the only one of my server that's been around since Kara days precisely because older players don't get special treatment. We have a mixture of vanilla players as well as new ones, and for our 25 mans we select based on skill and class requirement. Honestly speaking, if my guild master(also the raid leader) wanted to bench someone that did 5k more dps than me so i can come along for the raid, there is no way I'd take the spot.

TL;DR

Favoritism scares off new players = guild doesn't grow. And your current players will inevitably leave sooner or later.

No people joining and staying + People leaving = Guild dying.



Edited by Velaniz on 8/11/2011 8:56 PM PDT
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3 Human Mage
0
Thanks again all. I spoke with the GM again and set the ground rules that we need for raiding. She agreed with the delineation of roles and will allow me to set the raids as needed to progress.

She wasnt happy about it but I feel it is best for the guild. The "seniors" will still raid but will be working with us on T11 to gear them up and then allow them to be alts and such for the normal raiders
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