GC's latest blog, Active Mitigation Playstyle

85 Blood Elf Death Knight
3365
Just give it up dude, bliz has this idiotic idea that blood is awesome, even when it's been proved that their supposed 6DSpm was a total fail aproximation, and even if they've been shown time and again how utterly wrong everything concerning to blood is. They are not going to back down, IMO it'll just get worse til next expansion.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5955
Except the problem with DK's active mitigation isn't that it's active and requires effort, but that it's reactive to the problem.

You're relying on timing it so you use your abilityt after you take a serious beating, and you're trying to time it so you catch the best 5 seconds of abuse you endured.

From what the topic said the similar active effort for Pallies and Warriors is going to be Holy Shield/Shield Wall (no idea what Druids would use I don't have one high enough level to judge).

So we don't really wait until we take a huge hit then react, we'll be looking at the boss, see that he's starting to cast something major and tag HS/SW to help absorb it.

Think of using the Shield against KT in Tempest Keep. You see the big attack coming, you actively brace for it.
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90 Undead Death Knight
8195
I'm seeing a pattern here. So do you think Blizzard realizes tanking shortage is a community problem.


Actually it's a player choice issue.

Some players just do not want to be the tank, no matter how hard or easy it is.
No matter what type of game mechanics it has.

They just do not like that playstyle, being the one to hold agro (on single or multiple mobs), kite the boss (when needed), pull aggro off of sloppy dps'ers who can't manage their own aggro, and all the other "duties" that are required of the tank.

And no number of rewards or mechanics styles will change that.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
6580
Except the problem with DK's active mitigation isn't that it's active and requires effort, but that it's reactive to the problem.

You're relying on timing it so you use your abilityt after you take a serious beating, and you're trying to time it so you catch the best 5 seconds of abuse you endured.

From what the topic said the similar active effort for Pallies and Warriors is going to be Holy Shield/Shield Wall (no idea what Druids would use I don't have one high enough level to judge).

So we don't really wait until we take a huge hit then react, we'll be looking at the boss, see that he's starting to cast something major and tag HS/SW to help absorb it.

Think of using the Shield against KT in Tempest Keep. You see the big attack coming, you actively brace for it.


That's only half the problem, though.
We're faced with using F-U runes(same as DS) to apply standard mitigation DoT's that all tanks can put up "freely" at the moment.
We're faced with having to keep Blade Barrier up, even sometimes at the cost of missing a timely DS because the 5 second window for dmg resets every 5 seconds instead of being linear.

We are barely able to keep up with dmg mitigation of shield tanks at the moment, and if RNG decides to hate us, we lose viability VS other tanks, and make healers life harder. We work twice as hard for the same result. Do you want to see pally and warrior tanks in the LFD that were just barely able to do it before this patch, and are squishier than a rogue now because they can't grasp how to maintain mitigation?

If they rework WoG to be something similar to DS via a buff in the prot tree, they'll probably cut down on mastery's effectiveness for pallies. Then some other confusing stuff that I don't even want to comprehend.

Do you really want that? I play tanks in this game. Nothing else. If they bring all 3 other tanks down to the stressfullness of the current DK design... sigh. Sad panda.
Edited by Celivan on 8/16/2011 4:59 PM PDT
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85 Human Paladin
2950
I like the concept of managing one's resources. However, I'd like threat management to remain important to some degree, and not just fall to the wayside.

Now, I don't know how DK tanks are doing right now, as I haven't played one since shortly after Cata went live. However, just because they want resource management to matter doesn't mean they want it to be as severe as Blood is at the moment.



This seems to be one of those things that we'll have to watch before we can make calls on how good it is, witch they seem to understand with their desire for feedback.
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Community Manager
Right now it's tough for DK tanks because they're the only ones on anything resembling an active mitigation model. The one active mitigation guy is going to look like he's working harder than the passive mitigation guys because, in a lot of ways, he is. If all tanks had worked this way from the start, it would be the norm, and nobody would be worried about jumping onto that model.

We've already established that threat isn't making for very compelling encounter design, and removing it offers us the ability to get creative with some of the mechanics that we're using; both in encounter and class design. In a world with no threat management, and no active mitigation, that doesn't leave a lot for tanks to do though. We think that making tanking more active, and focusing that activity around mitigation (which feels immediately useful) will generate some very rewarding gameplay. We want the act of tanking to be engaging, interesting and fun. We think the path forward will offer more of that for all the tanking classes.

Also, I've seen a number of references to making tanking easier in this thread and elsewhere. "Easier" isn't really the goal. The goal is to discard a mechanic which we don't think is working particularly well anymore, and replace it with something more focused and interesting. Doing so should also have the effect of allowing tanks who aren't as geared still do their job when grouped with players who outgear (or even outlevel them a bit). They'll still be responsible for doing a good job, but their absolute ability to hold the attention of the boss won't be a factor; their ability to play well and mitigate damage will be.

We're aware of player concerns about Blood tanking, and we'll work to ensure that Blood tanking will continue to be viable and effective into the future. On that note, we're interested in addressing some of the concerns that have been expressed about the spec (potentially as soon as the next major patch), though we want to accomplish that goal without sacrificing what sets the spec apart and makes it interesting.
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85 Worgen Druid
1965
Don't try saying Blood DK's have it worse than bears.
That's just a serious slap in our face.
Hate on the shield tanks all you want, but leave our already grimped fat furry behinds alone... you keep Blade Barrier up, we spam our 2 CD's (Frenzied Regen & Survival instincts) and have to keep Demoralizing Roar up to live. Even then, we're still getting hit harder than other tanks, seeing as we're STILL rolling off one mitigation which STILL barely makes 40% and no armor from agility..even with the 16% stam boost, we even fall up short there too.

Try-too-hard and inferior...Blizzard just doesn't like us non-shield using meat shields.
Sad panda mode.
Edited by ßrumak on 8/16/2011 6:33 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Paladin
15550
If you admit that threat stats are unattractive and that itemization is boring without them, why exacerbate the issue by essentially future-proofing against any possibility that threat will become important in any situation?

Right now, the only way to lose aggro is to miss a lot during low Vengeance or when picking up adds (which usually leave you with low Vengeance due to downtime). Problematic miss streaks are rare enough that players don't care about them, but linking competitive survivability bonuses to hit/expertise ratings would bring potent quality of life improvements for tanks who are frustrated by always having a shoddy chance to hit. Even something as boring as a direct avoidance conversion in a 3rd DR category would be a welcome change.

Instead, acknowledging the issue while removing threat concerns from the game only serves to make new tanks poorly informed about how to do their jobs effectively, and existing tanks lazy from not having to try anymore. Imagine if you learned to play a DPS class by one-shotting everything in the game until you hit level 85. Are you really prepared for the rest of the game when you have never even been able to tell what abilities are more effective than others?
Edited by Psiven on 8/16/2011 6:34 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Warrior
2375
08/16/2011 06:25 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We're aware of player concerns about Blood tanking, and we'll work to ensure that Blood tanking will continue to be viable and effective into the future. On that note, we're interested in addressing some of the concerns that have been expressed about the spec (potentially as soon as the next major patch), though we want to accomplish that goal without sacrificing what sets the spec apart and makes it interesting.


What took you so long? Did we not give good enough feedback for the past year and a half?

I just want to be able to speed these sorts of things up. If a spec is verifiably broken, what steps can the players take to get it fixed?
Edited by Communitas on 8/16/2011 6:34 PM PDT
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Edited by ßrumak on 8/16/11 6:32 PM (PDT)



Don't try saying Blood DK's have it worse than bears.That's just a serious slap in our face.Hate on the shield tanks all you want, but leave our already grimped fat furry behinds alone... you keep Blade Barrier up, we spam our 2 CD's (Frenzied Regen & Survival instincts) and have to keep Demoralizing Roar up to live. Even then, we're still getting hit harder than other tanks, seeing as we're STILL rolling off one mitigation which STILL barely makes 40% and no armor from agility.Blizzard just doesn't like us non-shield using meat shields.Sad panda mode.
you make me smile. i giggled at the last part :D
Edited by Neben on 8/16/2011 6:35 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Priest
3790
Right now it's tough for DK tanks because they're the only ones on anything resembling an active mitigation model. The one active mitigation guy is going to look like he's working harder than the passive mitigation guys because, in a lot of ways, he is. If all tanks had worked this way from the start, it would be the norm, and nobody would be worried about jumping onto that model.

We've already established that threat isn't making for very compelling encounter design, and removing it offers us the ability to get creative with some of the mechanics that we're using; both in encounter and class design. In a world with no threat management, and no active mitigation, that doesn't leave a lot for tanks to do though. We think that making tanking more active, and focusing that activity around mitigation (which feels immediately useful) will generate some very rewarding gameplay. We want the act of tanking to be engaging, interesting and fun. We think the path forward will offer more of that for all the tanking classes.

Also, I've seen a number of references to making tanking easier in this thread and elsewhere. "Easier" isn't really the goal. The goal is to discard a mechanic which we don't think is working particularly well anymore, and replace it with something more focused and interesting. Doing so should also have the effect of allowing tanks who aren't as geared still do their job when grouped with players who outgear (or even outlevel them a bit). They'll still be responsible for doing a good job, but their absolute ability to hold the attention of the boss won't be a factor; their ability to play well and mitigate damage will be.

We're aware of player concerns about Blood tanking, and we'll work to ensure that Blood tanking will continue to be viable and effective into the future. On that note, we're interested in addressing some of the concerns that have been expressed about the spec (potentially as soon as the next major patch), though we want to accomplish that goal without sacrificing what sets the spec apart and makes it interesting.


If you make all tanks active mitigation as punishing for all the tanks as you do for dk's. I have zero interest in tanking anymore, or even healing RDF anymore at that point. Most dk's you see have no idea how to manage an active mitigation play style, and are a nightmare to heal. This problem will only get worse as you force it on the rest of the tank player base.

So for your sake and the entire player bases sake. I hope you step carefully here. Cause I can see this issue blowing up in your face pretty easily with how you've handled dk's so far.
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
3360
Right now it's tough for DK tanks because they're the only ones on anything resembling an active mitigation model. The one active mitigation guy is going to look like he's working harder than the passive mitigation guys because, in a lot of ways, he is. If all tanks had worked this way from the start, it would be the norm, and nobody would be worried about jumping onto that model.

We've already established that threat isn't making for very compelling encounter design, and removing it offers us the ability to get creative with some of the mechanics that we're using; both in encounter and class design. In a world with no threat management, and no active mitigation, that doesn't leave a lot for tanks to do though. We think that making tanking more active, and focusing that activity around mitigation (which feels immediately useful) will generate some very rewarding gameplay. We want the act of tanking to be engaging, interesting and fun. We think the path forward will offer more of that for all the tanking classes.

Also, I've seen a number of references to making tanking easier in this thread and elsewhere. "Easier" isn't really the goal. The goal is to discard a mechanic which we don't think is working particularly well anymore, and replace it with something more focused and interesting. Doing so should also have the effect of allowing tanks who aren't as geared still do their job when grouped with players who outgear (or even outlevel them a bit). They'll still be responsible for doing a good job, but their absolute ability to hold the attention of the boss won't be a factor; their ability to play well and mitigate damage will be.

We're aware of player concerns about Blood tanking, and we'll work to ensure that Blood tanking will continue to be viable and effective into the future. On that note, we're interested in addressing some of the concerns that have been expressed about the spec (potentially as soon as the next major patch), though we want to accomplish that goal without sacrificing what sets the spec apart and makes it interesting.


Where were you a year and a half ago when the tanking forum PROVED WITH MATH the Blood tanking model wasn't going to work compared to Block/SD?

What does Blizzard only admit the tanking forum is correct when there are massive DK tank rerolls?
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85 Worgen Rogue
8540
never trust the company to "fix" an issue it always ends up worse then before.
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90 Human Paladin
14580
If only DK still meant Dishonor Kill. Everyone's life would be easier!

On topic.

While I don't mind this change at all, I worry that it is just steering all shield wearers to gear and gem for the same stats even moreso. I like my character being more than -just another tank-!
Edited by Duckoquack on 8/16/2011 6:48 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
2645
i'm posting on my failknight for this one.
i'm a blood dk tank.
i'm not hit capped nor expertise capped.
i am casual and only do h zandys for the satchels of exotic mysteries.
sometimes i also do them for enough valor pts to sell boe VP bracers
i am the reason your arguement about blood dk tanks being "so difficult" and how no casuals will play them is invalid.
good day.
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55 Worgen Death Knight
90
Right now it's tough for DK tanks because they're the only ones on anything resembling an active mitigation model. The one active mitigation guy is going to look like he's working harder than the passive mitigation guys because, in a lot of ways, he is. If all tanks had worked this way from the start, it would be the norm, and nobody would be worried about jumping onto that model.

We've already established that threat isn't making for very compelling encounter design, and removing it offers us the ability to get creative with some of the mechanics that we're using; both in encounter and class design. In a world with no threat management, and no active mitigation, that doesn't leave a lot for tanks to do though. We think that making tanking more active, and focusing that activity around mitigation (which feels immediately useful) will generate some very rewarding gameplay. We want the act of tanking to be engaging, interesting and fun. We think the path forward will offer more of that for all the tanking classes.

Also, I've seen a number of references to making tanking easier in this thread and elsewhere. "Easier" isn't really the goal. The goal is to discard a mechanic which we don't think is working particularly well anymore, and replace it with something more focused and interesting. Doing so should also have the effect of allowing tanks who aren't as geared still do their job when grouped with players who outgear (or even outlevel them a bit). They'll still be responsible for doing a good job, but their absolute ability to hold the attention of the boss won't be a factor; their ability to play well and mitigate damage will be.

We're aware of player concerns about Blood tanking, and we'll work to ensure that Blood tanking will continue to be viable and effective into the future. On that note, we're interested in addressing some of the concerns that have been expressed about the spec (potentially as soon as the next major patch), though we want to accomplish that goal without sacrificing what sets the spec apart and makes it interesting.

All I ask is that if other tanks get "active tanking" without having to use an ability that requires hit rating (ala the paladin's Holy Shield), then DKs deserve the same treatment.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
08/16/2011 06:25 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Right now it's tough for DK tanks because they're the only ones on anything resembling an active mitigation model.


No, it's tough because they take more damage under the expectation of healing it back, and die when damage is too high. Fix that part. The active part is fine (provided everyone plays by the same rules, which you seem to be doing). Just fix the spikey bit. Please.

I really dont care if we all need to hit with strike x to activate our flavourful mitigation. As long as it's all the same and one of us isn't the odd man out like we have now. Come on.
Edited by Charsi on 8/16/2011 7:01 PM PDT
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