GC's latest blog, Active Mitigation Playstyle

85 Worgen Warrior
3375
Are you actually serious, Blood is the single best designed spec in the game? Isn't this why they are changing everything, because DK's can't compete in the higher end content, which is odd because I have seen several DK's clear firelands. No, this new patch is most likely Blizzards attempt at fixing an issue as quick as possible rather than actaully taking time to redo the DK's tank spec. IMO, perhaps the frost tank could come back with passive mitigation. Then casual players could play DK's rather than just the skilled few. The DK's will be on par with the other tanks then problem fixed. But to say that Blood is the best spec invented in WoW is just....completely preposterous. If it WAS the best spec invented, wouldn't it actually WORK? Obviously it doesn't, otherwise we would not be in this situation. PERIOD.
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85 Undead Warrior
4630
Im sure that future dungeon/raid content will recieve more mechanics than they have before. Given that tanks can get aggro better fights can be developed in a more complex and fun way. Thats what it looks like to me.
(Yet people seem to ignore that part of dax's post and focus sorely on complaints.) :/


Because the part you are missing isn't about the threat issue, it's warriors/pallys/druids in time might change to a tanking class they were not interested in playing at first otherwise they would have rolled a class with active mitigation abilities in this case a DK (which has it's own issues currently for high end raiding mind you)

OP clearly stated this isn't about the vengeance change it's about Blizz saying "We like the DK blood tanking model and are willing to change the other tanks to that same model.
Edited by Chillybomb on 8/16/2011 9:57 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
5930
08/16/2011 09:40 PMPosted by Gorkag
I can assure you, on progression fights the block tanks far outshine the non-block tanks.


Prior to HM's the only fight that really separates itself in difficulty from the others...or tests healing attrition numbers, is Rag...which typically means 40% magical source damage...

Bears shine in that fight due to 24% innate passive magic source resistance.

On Ryolith Swipe + Thrash + 6% hit and some expertise make the adds a joke for a bear. Its so easy for a bear the enemy is sleep.

On Baleroc pure avoidance is king...

On Alys, which is predominantly about worm management...tank dps is king...

Bears are performing quite nicely atm.

DK's however do need love, as has already been mentioned its not so much the total aggregate damage thats the issue, but how the class responds to spike mechanics and its affect on healing that become the problem.

Lumping Bears in with DK's does a disservice to the issues that DK's face in a raid environment.

Could Bears use some fine tuning with our mastery or other tweaks?...sure...most other classes would like that very same attention and polishing.

However that shine and polish shouldn't come at the expense of a class that is experiencing real issues currently.

Issues visible enough where some guilds are choosing not to use DK's to tank, or subbing them out in non trivial encounters...or where player frustration is so justified and so severe that the player turns to another class to avoid that frustration.
Edited by Valarkin on 8/16/2011 10:02 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
2880
Don't try saying Blood DK's have it worse than bears.
That's just a serious slap in our face.
Hate on the shield tanks all you want, but leave our already grimped fat furry behinds alone... you keep Blade Barrier up, we spam our 2 CD's (Frenzied Regen & Survival instincts) and have to keep Demoralizing Roar up to live. Even then, we're still getting hit harder than other tanks, seeing as we're STILL rolling off one mitigation which STILL barely makes 40% and no armor from agility..even with the 16% stam boost, we even fall up short there too.

Try-too-hard and inferior...Blizzard just doesn't like us non-shield using meat shields.
Sad panda mode.


Can't tell if troll, or never played Feral. I tank beside a DK tank and I take less damage consistantly. SD is superior to Blood Shield in 90% of cases, we have ~10% more raw mitigation from armour and we still have higher dodge rating than other classes have dodge+parry combined.


I tank beside a very decent warrior tank (I'd rate him above me skill-wise in a heartbeat) with equal gear, and I consistently take less damage than him.
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90 Human Warrior
7775
Right now it's tough for DK tanks because they're the only ones on anything resembling an active mitigation model. The one active mitigation guy is going to look like he's working harder than the passive mitigation guys because, in a lot of ways, he is. If all tanks had worked this way from the start, it would be the norm, and nobody would be worried about jumping onto that model.

We've already established that threat isn't making for very compelling encounter design, and removing it offers us the ability to get creative with some of the mechanics that we're using; both in encounter and class design. In a world with no threat management, and no active mitigation, that doesn't leave a lot for tanks to do though. We think that making tanking more active, and focusing that activity around mitigation (which feels immediately useful) will generate some very rewarding gameplay. We want the act of tanking to be engaging, interesting and fun. We think the path forward will offer more of that for all the tanking classes.

Also, I've seen a number of references to making tanking easier in this thread and elsewhere. "Easier" isn't really the goal. The goal is to discard a mechanic which we don't think is working particularly well anymore, and replace it with something more focused and interesting. Doing so should also have the effect of allowing tanks who aren't as geared still do their job when grouped with players who outgear (or even outlevel them a bit). They'll still be responsible for doing a good job, but their absolute ability to hold the attention of the boss won't be a factor; their ability to play well and mitigate damage will be.

We're aware of player concerns about Blood tanking, and we'll work to ensure that Blood tanking will continue to be viable and effective into the future. On that note, we're interested in addressing some of the concerns that have been expressed about the spec (potentially as soon as the next major patch), though we want to accomplish that goal without sacrificing what sets the spec apart and makes it interesting.


If you make all tanks active mitigation as punishing for all the tanks as you do for dk's. I have zero interest in tanking anymore, or even healing RDF anymore at that point. Most dk's you see have no idea how to manage an active mitigation play style, and are a nightmare to heal. This problem will only get worse as you force it on the rest of the tank player base.

So for your sake and the entire player bases sake. I hope you step carefully here. Cause I can see this issue blowing up in your face pretty easily with how you've handled dk's so far.
^^^^ this pretty well sums it up.Day that patch comes out I will unsub it is that easy.I stayed for talent changes and stat changes even though i hated them.I still hate having to stack mastery over all else .But i really do not have to work at aggro most times in raids as it was every one in raid knows give the warrior 20 sec then go balls to the wall.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
6580
Im sure that future dungeon/raid content will recieve more mechanics than they have before. Given that tanks can get aggro better fights can be developed in a more complex and fun way. Thats what it looks like to me.
(Yet people seem to ignore that part of dax's post and focus sorely on complaints.) :/


The negativity is stemming from Blizzards overly relaxed timeframe in dealing with things that they break, taking months to reply and even longer to "fix".

The numbers were crunched by the best of the best right when Cata came out. The tanking community TOLD Blizzard, IN THE PTR, that Blood is counter-intuitive in design, and essentially "broken". We even provided them with the foresight that Blood tanks would be dead by the 2nd tier of Cata. Here we are today, roughly 2 months into the 2nd tier, and we get a Blue admitting that Blood needs work, while proposing to make all tanks similar in design.

My faith in the Dev team to nail this implementation on the first go? Non-existent. This particular Dev team has proven time and time again that they throw stuff out on Live servers without really knowing if its going to work. They're going to attempt to restructure 3 tank tree's with a minor content patch.

My sub runs out in a week. Up until today I was probably going to renew, even though I've been disgusted with the decision making of this x-pac. After this announcement, I doubt very much-so that I'll be resubbing. I simply can't give my money to a company that has less logic in their design than my 11 year old does with his school projects. The entire blood community told them that this tree is a failure in design, and are still saying it to this day. To have faith in a company that wants to give this same design failure to 3 other classes... my god. You can't run a game this large on whims. You need to listen to the playerbase, extrapolate things here and there, and fine tune your coding somewhere along the lines of what the smart, number crunchers are telling you. Better still, crunch the numbers themselves(omg what a novel idea).This dev team doesn't do either, and I'm tired of being a guinea pig.
Edited by Celivan on 8/16/2011 10:22 PM PDT
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75 Tauren Druid
920
So the solution to get more people tanking is to.....make tanking harder? Hahaha errr excuse me, carry on with the discussion.
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90 Worgen Hunter
5595
How many times has Blizz said they like to do things in small changes? I can see them trying to help blood dk's with a better way to hold threat and see how it pans out. But doing this to all the tanking classes seems overboard. I hated what they did to hunters with focus to make things simple. I hated the changes to my pally that I tanked with in wrath so much I deleted him! I've started another pally and am starting to get used to tanking again. I don't understand why Blizz doesn't take the advice of people who play this "game" day in and day out?
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90 Draenei Death Knight
6860
08/16/2011 10:09 PMPosted by Ironside
So the solution to get more people tanking is to.....make tanking harder? Hahaha errr excuse me, carry on with the discussion.
It's going to be much easier, initially at least.
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Right now it's tough for DK tanks because they're the only ones on anything resembling an active mitigation model. The one active mitigation guy is going to look like he's working harder than the passive mitigation guys because, in a lot of ways, he is. If all tanks had worked this way from the start, it would be the norm, and nobody would be worried about jumping onto that model.


We are what, 6? 7? years into the game and you are talking about completely changing how a tank operates and is played. If you want to reinvent the wheel, please do it in your next MMORPG.

We've already established that threat isn't making for very compelling encounter design, and removing it offers us the ability to get creative with some of the mechanics that we're using; both in encounter and class design. In a world with no threat management, and no active mitigation, that doesn't leave a lot for tanks to do though. We think that making tanking more active, and focusing that activity around mitigation (which feels immediately useful) will generate some very rewarding gameplay. We want the act of tanking to be engaging, interesting and fun. We think the path forward will offer more of that for all the tanking classes.


Or you could consider not changing an entire role because some dps are too stupid to not release their "leet" dps less than 3 seconds into a pull. Cataclysm was supposed to be about players taking responsibility. Now you are saying it isn't fair to expect dps to act responsibly so we are going to totally change tanking so they don't have to hold back. Wrong headed and foolish.

Also, I've seen a number of references to making tanking easier in this thread and elsewhere. "Easier" isn't really the goal. The goal is to discard a mechanic which we don't think is working particularly well anymore, and replace it with something more focused and interesting. Doing so should also have the effect of allowing tanks who aren't as geared still do their job when grouped with players who outgear (or even outlevel them a bit). They'll still be responsible for doing a good job, but their absolute ability to hold the attention of the boss won't be a factor; their ability to play well and mitigate damage will be.

We're aware of player concerns about Blood tanking, and we'll work to ensure that Blood tanking will continue to be viable and effective into the future. On that note, we're interested in addressing some of the concerns that have been expressed about the spec (potentially as soon as the next major patch), though we want to accomplish that goal without sacrificing what sets the spec apart and makes it interesting.


And yet with all concerns and with all the data and player input that Blood tanking is HORRIBLE, you are choosing their model to emulate for every other tank in the game. Tell me. if you have multiple ways of doing something, is it good game policy to choose the way that isn't working?

If you make all tanks active mitigation as punishing for all the tanks as you do for dk's. I have zero interest in tanking anymore, or even healing RDF anymore at that point. Most dk's you see have no idea how to manage an active mitigation play style, and are a nightmare to heal. This problem will only get worse as you force it on the rest of the tank player base.

So for your sake and the entire player bases sake. I hope you step carefully here. Cause I can see this issue blowing up in your face pretty easily with how you've handled dk's so far.



This. Why in the blue blazes you feel the need to force all tanks to be death knights 2.0 is beyond me.

Here is the clearest way I can point out the issue. I hope you understand it.

If all the warriors, druids, and paladins wanted to be death knights, they already would have been.

Again. Just so you're REAL CLEAR what I am saying.

If all the warriors, druids, and paladins wanted to be death knights, they already would have been.


Understand?

08/16/2011 08:13 PMPosted by Lynara
i foresee more Arms/fury warriors, dps Feral, frosk/unhoy DK, and ret paladins coming from this.


This.

If what I am discerning here is true, that in actual fact Blizzard is going to make tanking yet harder, then I am at a loss.

That will have a terrible effect on this game, so I hope I am understanding this wrong.

But if this is in fact yet another of GC's bad decisions, well I guess some of you guys with Blue text will be paying the price, because do not think for a minute losing another few hundred thousand subscriptions will not result in layoffs.


And this.
Edited by Ylspyth on 8/16/2011 10:19 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Death Knight
9325
There's a couple of things that need to be understood about Death Knight tanks.

1) We're Death Knights. It's a Hero Class. Its playstyle is meant to be more complex in some fashion than the other classes. In return for accepting that, we get to start at a higher level, we get a free mount and riding training, we get customized and optimized gear to take us into Outland, and we get to be powerful enough that Outland, even group quests, is largely just a time sink for us. We don't hit a legitimate challenge until we get to Northrend.

2) The current Blood model works. It's fun because it's involved, and it requires some thought. The Death Strike mechanic is at the core of a Death Knight's survivability as a tank. Death Knights take more damage than any other tank, but that's balanced out by our ability to heal it in an active fashion, not by casting a spell with a cast time, not by HoTing ourselves up, but by literally generating threat and healing ourselves while we do it. In short, the hallmark of a good Blood Death Knight is that they know when to use Death Strike for its maximum effect. Even glyphed, using Death Strike consecutively isn't optimal; the second and subsequent hits give us some health back, but we get a lot more if we let the boss beat on us a couple swipes before we use it again.

Ghostcrawler wasn't saying in his blog that Paladins, Warriors and Druids should get self healing via an active ability. He was saying the active and involved nature of the Blood tanking method should probably be replicated with the other tanking classes. It makes perfect thematic sense to me for a Paladin to heal themselves from a strike, but it's too much when we realize that a Paladin's survivability is a lot more about mitigation and reduction than it is about parrying and healing, which is where the Death Knight's tanking style is centralized.

To be honest, it even makes sense to me that a Druid might get some self healing from swiping as a bear. But again, it's too much when you take into account their other tanking abilities.

Death Knights go up to the boss and say "Hit me. HIT ME!" They take that negative and turn it into a positive by damaging the boss and recouping some of the damage they just took. Most healers ought to jump for joy when they find out they have a Death Knight tank, because if that Death Knight is doing their job, the healer doesn't have to work as hard at their job as they do with Paladins, Warriors and Druids.

Part of the problem here lies with issues for point #1 above, however. There are a lot of people who don't realize there's a lot more finesse and involvement with playing a Death Knight. They went through the opening quests in Wrath of the Lich King, they overpowered Outland, flailed a bit before finding their rhythm in Northrend, and then settled into being top damage outputters by the time they hit Icecrown Citadel. Many Death Knights settled into the "I just have to keep my diseases up" mode of play, and while the diseases are vital to us, they're just one part of our overall toolbox.

I apply those diseases because their ticks generate damage, which generates threat. I have to watch my Runic Power, I have to watch my runes, and I have to keep an eye on my surroundings, all while keeping an eye on my healer's mana bar.

I don't mind if I don't have to worry as much about threat; the monster should want to hit me. I don't plan on going AFK because threat is so automatic now, but I note that this is awesome that my DPS can feel a little better about unloading after I take those initial first couple of seconds to get my threat. Bosses die quicker, the DPS sees bigger numbers on their screen (which they like), the healer feels accomplished because I survived the fight, and we progress on to other things.

If other tanks get more active mechanics, that's an opportunity for tanking to become fun for them, and not merely rote. Druids, Paladins and Warriors have been tanking since 2004. Shaking that up a little bit should be seen as an opportunity to look at those well-aged classes with some new glasses.
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90 Worgen Hunter
5595
Quote "If all the warriors, druids, and paladins wanted to be death knights, they already would have been."
Hunters said the same thing before Cata about focus. If all the hunters wanted to be rogues or feral kitty's they already would be.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7655
Sometimes i feel that way. I'ts almost a pain to tank with the"OMFG CRIT SHIELD" yay 13k!...oh its gone... lol
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
6580
Well I'm off to bed for the evening. I want to tank everyone for your comments here, and thanks to the Blue for his acknowledgement.

Blizz, if you take anything away from this thread at all, let it be that your customer base wants you to tread VERY carefully with this decision, and however you may implement it. Don't be afraid to let this change sit around for 5.0 if you have to. The last thing in the world that this game needs right now is a broken PvE class role.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
11615
After having to relearn/get acustomed to a new tank style with the combo po..Holy Power change, A change that fixed something that wasnt broken IMO. Im not in the mood to relearn My fav class/spec again. If I wanted to do that I would reroll. If this change comes through and foceably and signifigantly alters the way my class/spec works I'm done.
I almost quit after the HP changes but with some proding from my friends I stuck it out, while not as fun as TBC or Wrath Iv grown to enjoy it.
I wont be putting up with it again I will unsub.
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75 Tauren Druid
920
So the solution to get more people tanking is to.....make tanking harder? Hahaha errr excuse me, carry on with the discussion.
It's going to be much easier, initially at least.


Initially yes, but after they put in the active mitigation your average Joe, and below average tank will suffer leading to alot more gibs. This will frustrate Joe, and it will frustrate Sally the healer, leading to alot less Joes and Sallys in the world.
Edited by Ironside on 8/16/2011 10:36 PM PDT
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