Feral Druids and Claw

85 Night Elf Druid
10970
Feral Druids get a fairly short end of the stick when it comes to add fights and combo points. For this example I will use the Majordomo Staghelm fight and his Spirit of the Flame adds. These adds have very little health, and since they despawn there is no body to use excess Finishers once they have fallen. These adds usually die extremely quick, so getting to 5 combo points then using a FB to spend all of our energy on is really quite frustrating.

Swipe is a great ability, since it does not generate combo points and therefore does not remove our remaining combo points on Staghelm when we are required to switch targets. The biggest problem with this is that Swipe's energy cost is extremely high and as such it does not become beneficial to use over a single target attack unless there are at least 3 enemy targets within Swipe range.

I propose a change to our Feral ability Claw:

Claw Requires Level 8
35 Energy Melee Range
Instant
Requires Cat Form
Claw the target for 540% normal damage plus 56. This ability neither awards nor consumes any combo points.


This gives it the same DPE as Mangle, but does not generate a debuff or combo points. This would allow Feral Druids an ability to use on enemy targets that will not live long enough for CP generation and use, therefore losing all of our current Combo Points on our main target.
Edited by Konungr on 8/27/2011 10:12 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
0
Slap that in with a feral talent, and it's a great idea. Us resto druids use claw to build points still :P
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85 Tauren Druid
4005
Mangle, 35 energy
Shred, 40 energy
Swipe, 45 energy, Swipe hits for just as much as Mangle.
Its not that bad for quick targets

Anyone spec'd boomkin or resto are now subject to positional requirement to generate CP, i'd say bring Swipe down to 30 energy and reduce its damage appropriately to keep it level would be your best bet.
Edited by Eskarktos on 8/28/2011 1:27 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
8715
im trying to wrack my brain to think of a reason why a Resto or Balance druid would generate combo points.
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85 Tauren Druid
4005
08/28/2011 01:26 AMPosted by Béar
im trying to wrack my brain to think of a reason why a Resto or Balance druid would generate combo points.


Leveling, Oom, silence phase, for the hell of it, i've done it a few times, on chim i go kitty as it gave me more dps then shooting moonfires and starfires off, its part of the, im a druid thing.
Edited by Eskarktos on 8/28/2011 1:28 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
0
08/28/2011 01:26 AMPosted by Béar
im trying to wrack my brain to think of a reason why a Resto or Balance druid would generate combo points


PvP.
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85 Tauren Druid
4005
08/28/2011 02:29 AMPosted by Locusta
im trying to wrack my brain to think of a reason why a Resto or Balance druid would generate combo points


PvP.


This too, a 10sec cd for a 5second stun is amazing.
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85 Tauren Druid
3735
08/28/2011 01:19 AMPosted by Locusta
Slap that in with a feral talent, and it's a great idea. Us resto druids use claw to build points still :P


you get mangle as soon as you spec feral, so claw should only change once someone acquires mangle /goes feral... in practice yes, it could be part of furor.


Swipe, 45 energy, Swipe hits for just as much as Mangle.
it is less than mangle for pure DPE comparisons until the weapon is something like 1914dps


i'd say bring Swipe down to 30 energy and reduce its damage appropriately to keep it level would be your best bet.
but why? it's great for its opportunity burst use as is,, and you certainly don't want to risk the only AoE on cat being GCD capped, that just causes gimpping..but it still wont fix the DPE disparity/loss vs a single add. the change to claw is very much desired
Edited by Korba on 8/28/2011 8:40 AM PDT
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85 Worgen Druid
13620
Claw is an important combo point generator for non Feral Druids. Compensation to non Ferals would need to be made elsewhere. You can't expect non-Ferals to spam Rake over and over.
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85 Night Elf Druid
10970
08/28/2011 12:13 PMPosted by Hrothegar
Claw is an important combo point generator for non Feral Druids. Compensation to non Ferals would need to be made elsewhere. You can't expect non-Ferals to spam Rake over and over.


First of all, if they aren't feral why are they trying to build combo points anyways, both Resto and Balance use spell power so if they are trying to do damage, using spells will put out much more damage.

Second, Shred is still available if they have to build CPs.
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85 Worgen Druid
13620
08/28/2011 12:17 PMPosted by Konungr
Claw is an important combo point generator for non Feral Druids. Compensation to non Ferals would need to be made elsewhere. You can't expect non-Ferals to spam Rake over and over.


First of all, if they aren't feral why are they trying to build combo points anyways, both Resto and Balance use spell power so if they are trying to do damage, using spells will put out much more damage.

Second, Shred is still available if they have to build CPs.


That is a very narrow minded way to look at the situation as a whole.

Honestly, you can't see any reason what so ever for non-Ferals to use combo points? None? Ever? You need to expand you point of view a bit. From a pure mechanical stand point, non-Ferals do deserve to have combo points function fluidly even on the most basic level (which is the way things are now). One basic ability (Claw) then a DoT with Rake and the more situational, Shred.


However, Shred is a terrible ability for any spec Druid to rely on for basic combo point building. That's what Mangle is for Ferals and Claw for everyone else. Non-Ferals don't even have the snare or run speed to keep targets slowed for the positional requirement needed to use Shred. Also, Shred's positional requirement makes the ability completely dysfunctional in any sort of solo play in PvE.

Claw is the foundation of combo point building. It needs to stay as it is or as I said before, changes made else where so non-Ferals have a button to spam to build points when necessary.
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85 Tauren Druid
3735
08/28/2011 12:13 PMPosted by Hrothegar
Compensation to non Ferals would need to be made elsewhere.
well, that would be fine by me


You can't expect non-Ferals to spam Rake over and over.
you're damage crying on this my friend? this is a CP issue or damage pal?

claw vs rake on a non feral non dps carrying weapon specc?
rake is exactly what I would/did do.

why would I spam a 40 energy ability that generates only 155% (+710) from a 311dps staff over a cheaper (35 energy) mastery augmented DoT?

your complaints are losing luster
Edited by Korba on 8/28/2011 1:00 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Druid
13620
08/28/2011 01:00 PMPosted by Korba
Compensation to non Ferals would need to be made elsewhere.
well, that would be fine by me


You can't expect non-Ferals to spam Rake over and over.
you're damage crying on this my friend? this is a CP issue or damage pal?

claw vs rake on a non feral non dps carrying weapon specc?
rake is exactly what I would/did do.

why would I spam a 40 energy ability that generates only 155% (+710) from a 311dps staff over a cheaper (35 energy) mastery augmented DoT?

your complaints are losing luster


Yes, complaining and crying, that's exactly what I'm doing. You cherry picked rebuttal is less than convincing.
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85 Tauren Druid
3735
08/28/2011 01:12 PMPosted by Hrothegar
Yes, complaining and crying, that's exactly what I'm doing.
I agree here buddy.


You[sic] cherry picked rebuttal


Quoted you verbatim, it is not cherry picking

your registered issues are
A) damage output on rake vs claw
B) combo building with rake vs claw

you can expect non-feral to spam rake for combo, that is precisely how I would do it; certainly as armor will negate massive amounts of physical damage & you will have mastery in PvP anyway. Claw hits for less damage*

also claw is more expensive, for Combo per energy rake would be superior.

don't blame me for your failures

_________________________________________
*
DPS feral setup I tried claw vs lvl 85 target dummies to compare

claws are 3,200 non crit
rake hits(on my haste>mastery play style) did 4,400 non crit, ticks do the same


you can bet most classes in pvp have more armor + the DPS on a resto/balance weapon is 1/2 of mine, and they have mastery too.... so claw sucks

you spam rake for cheaper cost AND better damage to get those bleed hits + Dot+ combos..
claw is not to even to be used past level 10 for anything but maybe low level PvP, period. This is the redundancy issue I have always had with claw
Edited by Korba on 8/28/2011 2:58 PM PDT
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85 Goblin Rogue
9170
They would probably give cp's on druids/rogues before trying to make a mind spike for energy users.
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90 Tauren Druid
14035
Actually claw does more damage for casters because it's based on weapon DPS (which is substantial even for a caster) while rake only uses attack power. My balance druid does about 1400 damage with claw and about 140 (initial) damage with rake (level 88 dummy).
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85 Worgen Druid
13620
08/28/2011 03:22 PMPosted by Stenhaldi
Actually claw does more damage for casters because it's based on weapon DPS (which is substantial even for a caster) while rake only uses attack power. My balance druid does about 1400 damage with claw and about 140 (initial) damage with rake (level 88 dummy).


My Claws hit for about 1400-1800 like you said and crit for about 4k on a dummy. Rake ticks at 1350 x4. Minor but not insignificant. Any max level Druid using Feral abilities is either in a situation in pve where mana or spells are a major issue (thus DPS matters, and there would be time to swap weapons) or in pvp when going for a quick Maim, where time spent in cat is the biggest issue.

In the grand scheme of things, all the little uses non-Ferals get from Claw all over the game out-weigh removing the ability's combo point generation.

-edit- accidental double post
Edited by Hrothegar on 8/28/2011 3:57 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Druid
10970
08/28/2011 03:40 PMPosted by Hrothegar
My Claws hit for about 1400-1800 like you said and crit for about 4k on a dummy. Rake ticks at 1350 x4. Minor but not insignificant. Any max level Druid using Feral abilities is either in a situation in pve where mana or spells are a major issue (thus DPS matters, and there would be time to swap weapons) or in pvp when going for a quick Maim, where time spent in cat is the biggest issue.


There is your problem, you are gauging this off of a dummy, where on a live target, in PVP Rake will hit substantially harder than Claw. It also costs 5 less energy.

08/28/2011 03:40 PMPosted by Hrothegar
quick Maim


Also, unless you are putting talent points into the feral tree for this, you are waiting a very long time for that "quick maim", considering the costs for Rake, Claw, and Maim and the fact that without Feral talents you start at 0 energy.

08/28/2011 03:40 PMPosted by Hrothegar
In the grand scheme of things, all the little uses non-Ferals get from Claw all over the game out-weigh removing the ability's combo point generation.


Not really, since as we have stated, there are still Rake and Shred as viable CP building options if you are trying to build CPs.

Actually claw does more damage for casters because it's based on weapon DPS (which is substantial even for a caster) while rake only uses attack power. My balance druid does about 1400 damage with claw and about 140 (initial) damage with rake (level 88 dummy).


There again, Dummy =/= Actual Enemy target w/ Armor.

08/28/2011 03:16 PMPosted by Gankage
They would probably give cp's on druids/rogues before trying to make a mind spike for energy users.


I would be completely fine with that, but since Rogues have a way to transferring their unused CPs to a different target, and Ferals just get stuck losing them, this is my current solution.



@ Hrothegar : You are trying to make two different arguments work together to prove your point when your two arguments being used are working against each other. You claim that Ferals need a CPG, but when we explain that there are 2 available, you complain of their damage, yet you dismiss the fact that for non-ferals, Balance spells will do more damage. Figure out which argument you are going to use and stick with it, don't try and switch them up to prove your invalid point.
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85 Tauren Druid
3735
140 rake?? hmm. naked with 85 agility (683 atp) with mastery at +0, i'm doing 196 on a lvl 88


My Claws hit for about 1400-1800 like you said and crit for about 4k on a dummy. Rake ticks at 1350 x4.
so the DPE are similar , but rake is losing, however

a) this depends on your mastery%
b) the addition of any debuff that augments bleeds
c) actual armor on players

d)* the speed at which you can produce claws vs rake

___________________________
assume 4 attacks for 5 combos

claw = 160 energy = ~8 seconds, ~6400 damage over 8 seconds = 800dps, 40dpe

rakes = 140 energy ~6 seconds, it's 5400 (+ 2 ticks = 8100 total) = 900dps +450dps ticks , 57dpe

rake works out to be faster at CP generation, by 25%, thus the spam rate results in better DPS typically

but 800 vs 1350 dps; resto/balance losing ~800 physical dps during combo building bc claw was altered? i'm sure there are better things to focus on that any non-feral would rather have

as it stands i would be fine if it was talent as suggested in #2, but the whole insistence that it has a noticeable impact on a non-feral pvp? you are making a mountain out of a mole hill
Edited by Korba on 8/28/2011 4:46 PM PDT
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