why is it that...

18 Human Paladin
0
10 man heroic bosses are so much easier than 25 mans? I thought blizz wanted to appeal to 25 man guilds?
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
7855
If 10 man heroic bosses are so easy, why are all the most progressed guilds 25 man instead of 10 man? By your logic, there should be tons of 10m guilds at the top.
Reply Quote
1 Human Hunter
0
It's because 10m can do the same progression as 25m in two nights a week somehow. Or because half of a 25 man raid may be dead-weight. Who knows!
Edited by Warrenbuffet on 8/29/2011 2:33 PM PDT
Reply Quote
18 Human Paladin
0
i would say that a majority of the good players play in 25 man guilds and that is why they are at the top...go do your own research...10 mans are known to be easier
Reply Quote
18 Human Paladin
0
25 mans i didnt say they were easy...i said they aren't as hard as 25 man encounters
Reply Quote
13 Worgen Rogue
40
08/29/2011 01:27 PMPosted by Nikolos
If 10 man heroic bosses are so easy, why are all the most progressed guilds 25 man instead of 10 man? By your logic, there should be tons of 10m guilds at the top.


The overall DPS and Healing requirement for a 10 man raid compared to a 25 man raid is so stupid.. 10mans are so under tuned it's not even funny..
Reply Quote
18 Human Paladin
0
08/29/2011 04:56 PMPosted by Gaidin
i didnt say they were easy...i said they aren't as hard as 25 man encounters
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
17400
Blizzard overcompensated for Tier 11. Enough said. In Tier 11, 10 man heroics were significantly harder than they're 25 man counterparts, with a few notable exceptions(Al'akir). There was so much QQ that when Tier 12 came out, Blizzard left 10 mans ridiculously undertuned.(cough Rhyolith)

Generally speaking It's 2.5 times easier to find 10 people that are competent, than it is to find 25. With raid buffs homogenized, raid composition is rarely as important as it used to be. So provided you have the necessary aoe and/or interrupts, you're good to go.

As far as progression goes, the sweeping stereotype is that 10 mans are for the casual players, while the 25 mans are for the hardcore players. Doesn't always work out like that, but that's the general consensus. It's a throwback to the BC era "LFG Karazahn" and the Wrath era "LFG ICC 10, on Saurfang".

Until 10 and 25 require the same amount of effort per player, they won't be viewed as equal. It'll swing back and forth for the next 17 tiers. Eventually Blizzard will get it right.
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Paladin
5175
This seems like a direct response to our progression. I wrote something similar on the main battle.net boards, so I'll share.

I suggest these stats:

# of 10m guilds that have downed H Shannox: 5547
# of 10m guilds that are 6/7 HM: 548
% of 10 HM guilds that are 6/7: 9.88%

# of 25m guilds that have downed H Shannox: 1888
# of 25m guilds that are 6/7 HM: 352
% of 10 HM guilds that are 6/7: 18.64%

I'd say it takes at least some dedication/intelligence to get H Shannox. You could be considered a heroic raiding guild. It looks like the success rate to get to 6/7H is much higher on 25 man. That doesn't really support your argument.

The way I look at it, 10 mans are generally designed easier (well except T11). Why? Because you have less flexibility with comp/buffs/CDs. If you have the accessibility to the right comp and can take advantage of it, 10 mans will be easier. For the average 10 man guild, this is not the case.

There could also be the gear issue and that 25 mans gear up at a substantially quicker rate, thus later tier encounters can be designed with stricter requirements as opposed to 10m.*

I will say this: there are some 10m roles that have WAY more personal responsibility than 25m. Hunter controlling spiderlings and soaking broodlings on H 10m Beth is the hardest role this tier (short of any H Rag for 25 and 10 man). Does that mean that all individual 10m roles are tougher? Absolutely not. I'd say personal roles on H Domo for 10m can be much easier.

Each raid size has their hard and easy fights. Are 25 mans grossly harder? No. Slightly harder, probably (for reasons stated before). I don't know why people argue this so much. Each raid size has it's benefits and drawbacks. I could complain about 10m getting the legendary much slower, but it's the nature of 10m raiding. Take the good with the bad.

* http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/952395-Gearing-rate-of-10m-vs.-25m

EDIT - FINALLY some discussion the Greymane boards other than recruiting and "I'm the best PVPer"
Edited by Adornus on 8/30/2011 10:03 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
7855
10-man raiding isn't specifically easier than 25-man raiding. However, I will admit that it is easier for a 25-man raiding guild to down 10-man bosses. You have a far larger pool of people to draw from, and it's much easier to grab the exact 10 people you need for a boss.

However, if 10-man were truly that much easier, we'd see tons of 10 man guilds at the top.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
1740
Despotism is a 10 man guild and it is understandable why you are arguing your point. Not taking away from your kills, but 10 mans are just easier. I am not saying it is night and day, but there is no way around it and if you look outside the box a little you will see that almost everyone is in agreement on that. The reason there aren't more 10 man guilds that are progressed is because 25 man guilds are more desirable based on loot distribution and other factors. For example, getting the legendary staff is a much quicker process in a 25 man raid than a 10 man raid. I have never been one to quite agree with 25 mans gearing faster. Yes, more loot drops, but that gear is often unusable or goes to offspec use. I think 10 man guilds got screwed during the last content and are now getting it a little easier with firelands.
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Paladin
5175
25 mans don't gear faster? Look at the below link and please argue that one. I also had a link previous in the thread that showed, with statistics and not "feeling", that 25s do indeed gear players faster.

http://www.wowprogress.com/gearscore/us/greymane

People need to realize that 10 mans aren't that much easier than 25 man, if at all. The only people who are agreeing that 25 mans are so much harder are on 25 mans. I hate to break it to you but I've done 25 man as well - they're not that much harder, again, if at all. Heck, sometimes they're much easier because you have more CDs to rotate and can designate a single person to a job rather than having to multi-task three things. Regardless if it's 10 man or 25 man, heroics are tough. There is no super edge either way. 10 mans have easier DPS and healing requirements (I could argue the healing part) but they also have less CDs/buffs/etc. It balances out.

I'm happy for people who kill heroics regardless of 25 man or 10 man. That isn't easy and takes a lot of dedication and team work. Until everyone is 7/7 HM on this realm, I think we can all agree with that.
Edited by Adornus on 8/30/2011 12:41 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Adornus is right on.

10s in WotLK were significantly easier when you were bringing 25 man gear in to hit them.

Now, it's about the same, and honestly I'd say 25s might be easier IF you can find 25 competent, thoughtful, and determined raiders.
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
11570
08/29/2011 01:27 PMPosted by Nikolos
If 10 man heroic bosses are so easy, why are all the most progressed guilds 25 man instead of 10 man? By your logic, there should be tons of 10m guilds at the top.


because all the good players are in 25man guilds...the top blongs to the strong.
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Paladin
9315
I shall point the you guys towards this.

http://www.paragon.fi/articles/10-vs-25-comparison
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Paladin
5175
Read the last couple of paragraphs, even they admit that the gap for optimal raid comp is too big. For top guilds, this isn't a problem because they can cover those raid comps. Since none of the guilds on this realm are "top guilds" I would venture to say it's still pretty even. Hell, look at their H Rag setup.* Seven vanq tokens, do you know how long that would take to gear in a 10 man? That's a huge advantage of being able to gear in 25m and not 10m.

I'll give you that for TOP guilds, 10m is probably tuned too easy due to the positive/negative disparity on raid comp. For the rest of us (without optimal raid comps, equally geared alts, and every healer/arcane mage having SoW), they are pretty balanced. Of course, if you get to pick the exact comp you need, know all of the fights, are already geared from those same fights, and can class stack, things will be easier.

They also understated 10m Beth by quite a bit to help make their point. This was also wrote before the nerfs to the 25m content (namely Baleroc).

*http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/?c=ve2kq44ad6000000000000000000000000000000

Sounds like it's just time to move everyone to 15 mans and end the debate.
Edited by Adornus on 8/31/2011 9:33 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
7855
I shall point the you guys towards this.

http://www.paragon.fi/articles/10-vs-25-comparison


Paragon conveniently ignores the obvious issue of gear disparity during their attempts. They did 6/7HM in 25man the second week of Firelands, when they were in mostly 372 gear. When they went back and did those hard modes in 10m, they were in mainly 391 gear. Of course it would seem the fights are easier.
Reply Quote
85 Orc Warrior
8590
10 or 25 this content is stupid easy minus HM Rag of course. Anyone that gets HM Rag in this content Pre nerf is an amazing guild 10 or 25. People that are complaining the most about 10 vs 25 are the ones that are not even 6/7 or 7/7. I never understood why people care or argue about this issue. If you like 10mans then raid 10man if you like 25 then raid 25 end of the issue.
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Paladin
5175
08/31/2011 05:07 PMPosted by Nighthorror
10 or 25 this content is stupid easy minus HM Rag of course. Anyone that gets HM Rag in this content Pre nerf is an amazing guild 10 or 25. People that are complaining the most about 10 vs 25 are the ones that are not even 6/7 or 7/7. I never understood why people care or argue about this issue. If you like 10mans then raid 10man if you like 25 then raid 25 end of the issue.


Come on, arguing is fun!
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
7855

Come on, arguing is fun!


No it isn't!
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]