A discussion of 10 man Firelands and 25 man.

88 Goblin Shaman
0
if u raid 10m hm with 10 me's vs 25m hm with 25 me's then it'd be the same. probably slightly easier on 25m due to faster gearing and being able to outgear fights faster assuming loot RNG works out favorably.

unfortunately in practice, 25m tends to not have 25 ppl of the "good" calibur and instead a smattering of "goods" with some "acceptables" and a plethora of "bads".

personally, i'd rather raid with 2 bads in a 10m than 5 in a 25m since they each have the potential to wipe the raid on their own. that said, stop being bad and it's the same difficulty!

/thread
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
0
if u raid 10m hm with 10 me's vs 25m hm with 25 me's then it'd be the same. probably slightly easier on 25m due to faster gearing and being able to outgear fights faster assuming loot RNG works out favorably.

unfortunately in practice, 25m tends to not have 25 ppl of the "good" calibur and instead a smattering of "goods" with some "acceptables" and a plethora of "bads".

personally, i'd rather raid with 2 bads in a 10m than 5 in a 25m since they each have the potential to wipe the raid on their own. that said, stop being bad and it's the same difficulty!

/thread


But if the 25 yous wipe once, Firemans will be on cooldown and you'll have to go pull extra trash to reset his CD before you pull the boss again. Though really, 25 good players really should never wipe! I hope your t13 bonus is:

"Set: Your damaging spells have a chance to reset the remaining cooldown on your Earth Elemental Totem."
Reply Quote
88 Goblin Shaman
0
look. real 25m guilds dont have shaman. they bring a real dps class like a demolock for 10% sp and the rest of them go aff and top meters like a baus like certain world first guilds do.

they should buff the warlock 2pc though.

(2) Set: Your periodic damage has a chance to summon a Fiery Imp to assist you in battle for 15 sec. If you're a terrible spec (destro), it punches you in the balls and gives you 66g to respec to a real spec.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
0
look. real 25m guilds dont have shaman. they bring a real dps class like a demolock for 10% sp and the rest of them go aff and top meters like a baus like certain world first guilds do.

they should buff the warlock 2pc though.

(2) Set: Your periodic damage has a chance to summon a Fiery Imp to assist you in battle for 15 sec. If you're a terrible spec (destro), it punches you in the balls and gives you 66g to respec to a real spec.


Don't even lie, you'd be perma destro and raid as much as you can to make gold.

Also, http://simulationcraft.org/420/Raid_T12H.html
You're still ahead of hunters. :( :( Destro under Ret pallies though!
Reply Quote
88 Goblin Shaman
0
hunters arent people
melee are worse than hunters
therefore
melee = scum
if ur worse than a melee then you're worse than scum.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16690
This is not factoring DI (which, while the warlock assumes 100% uptime on their DI buff, the friend's buff is being ignored, which is part of what makes warlocks quite possibly the most valuable class to have in a raid, as a side note) which would give a spriest another 1.5k DPS roughly (only counting personal DPS gain, not the lock's gain). It's also ignoring rogue poisons but screw them.


We have 3 Warlocks, and I get a Dark Intent buff every so often. Just to underline our lack of good classes to put it on. To tack onto the debuff argument, is there a hunter pet that can cover the 5% crit debuff or no?

And every decimation blade following a dodge/parry/miss. I assume with 6-7 swings per D.Blade, you're gonna see at least 1, more likely 2-3 per D.Blade sequence.


While I could rant on how that's completely RNG, I'll give this one to you because it completely slipped my mind <3

09/13/2011 04:00 PMPosted by Iconoclast
I think this is mostly fair, and barely favors 25m, and on several fights in Cata has been used as part of the strat in 25m (Domo)


There are strats where you have people deliberately die on Domo? Didn't know that (though to be fair, I have to throw out that there's a 10-man strategy going around where you take 0 of his special attacks throughout the entire encounter.) To add another fight where that's a viable strategy I'd point at Heroic V&T 25, where we had people die on purpose to avoid the second round of blackouts.

And it could still be 10m is harder, even by not much. I think it varies fight to fight, even 1 aspect of a fight to another within the same fight. I think making a blanket statement that 25 is harder is just silly, especially when there is still no argument to support it (Yea, 25m was maybe a little harder back pre-nerf on Balerocs HP, it got nerfed, and is now directly in line with 10m, oh yea, nobody on this server killed it pre-nerf). Furthermore, 25m has the option of having each ranged do 1.3k more DPS to add another healer and make that aspect of the fight much easier. 10man has the option to add an extra healer and require each DPS To pull 4.5k more.


Which leads me back to my own personal opinion that 10 & 25s (with the possible exception of H Rag, and IMO H Domo, but he's a joke on both 10 & 25 so it doesn't really matter >.>) are approximately equal this tier, with each having their own quirks and mechanics that are slightly more difficult in one difficulty than the other.

I make a terrible devil's advocate, can you tell?
Edited by Gistwiki on 9/13/2011 5:51 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
0
09/13/2011 05:51 PMPosted by Gistwiki
We have 3 Warlocks, and I get a Dark Intent buff every so often. Just to underline our lack of good classes to put it on. To tack onto the debuff argument, is there a hunter pet that can cover the 5% crit debuff or no?


DI is still an almost raid buff that is nice, and does help with 25m raid dps. No hunter pet provides 5% spellcrit, and even if it did, we'd give up 4% physical vulnerability, so that'd be a lose/lose situation.

While I could rant on how that's completely RNG, I'll give this one to you because it completely slipped my mind <3


It is RNGish, but nonetheless I think 25man is favored on healing on Baleroc.

There are strats where you have people deliberately die on Domo? Didn't know that (though to be fair, I have to throw out that there's a 10-man strategy going around where you take 0 of his special attacks throughout the entire encounter.) To add another fight where that's a viable strategy I'd point at Heroic V&T 25, where we had people die on purpose to avoid the second round of blackouts.


All the early 25m kills, an "offtank" (aka dps) would taunt right before a slash, eat it alone, and leave the raid with their stacks, then get crezzed. This would happen once per scorpion as an extra raid CD on top of the plethora of GS and ADs. They would take 0 slashes on the raid the entire fight. There's a reason Blizzard changed it, and tbh, if they weren't nerfing the entire zone next week, I'd expect them to nerf what you're referring to also. If you care, we didn't use that strat (and I placed 3rd on MM hunters today!). But ya, !@#$ like VnT also (crez + GS) got easier on 25 because you could avoid the mechanic. No idea if you know much about the Elementium Monstrosity fight, but 25ms would trivialize P1 with 3-4 lifegrips.


Which leads me back to my own personal opinion that 10 & 25s (with the possible exception of H Rag, and IMO H Domo, but he's a joke on both 10 & 25 so it doesn't really matter >.>) are approximately equal this tier, with each having their own quirks and mechanics that are slightly more difficult in one difficulty than the other.


Maybe with this new strat H-Domo is easier on 10s, I'm now too knowledgable on it, nor do I understand why it works on 10 and not 25? No idea which you think HRag is harder on, but it's a %^-*! of a raid comp fight on 10, and despite what Paragon says with good gear and 500+ wipes of experience on the fight, the 10m progression has been pretty void of kills.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16690
But ya, !@#$ like VnT also (crez + GS) got easier on 25 because you could avoid the mechanic. No idea if you know much about the Elementium Monstrosity fight, but 25ms would trivialize P1 with 3-4 lifegrips.


Blackout was changed so that GS wouldn't work on it.

We've done a few pulls on H TAC, and having a warrior tank makes it just as easy tbh.

Maybe with this new strat H-Domo is easier on 10s, I'm now too knowledgable on it, nor do I understand why it works on 10 and not 25? No idea which you think HRag is harder on, but it's a %^-*! of a raid comp fight on 10, and despite what Paragon says with good gear and 500+ wipes of experience on the fight, the 10m progression has been pretty void of kills.


If however Domo was tuned on normal carried over into heroic I can say with confidence that H Domo is significantly harder on 25-man (the lootbag that he is.) Absolutely every aspect of the fight is easier on 10s (except searing seeds, which'd probably be about equal.)

The reason a strat like the one I'm talking about wouldn't work on 25-man is because there are 3x as many orbs on 25-man. You wouldn't be able to reliably move him between forms while keeping 6 different orb tanks alive, at least not with anywhere near the same ease that you could do it on 10s.

Edit: Upon further review it is 5 and not 6.

Paragons perspective on Rag is a little off because they're able to build the perfect comp, and that so few other guilds are able to build that perfect comp underlines that there's a gap in dedication between the top end 25s and the top end 10s.

With a perfect comp, Rag is hands down easier on 10. With a suboptimal comp, he's probably about equal - a teeny bit harder, with the transition phases pushing him in favor of 10s.
Edited by Gistwiki on 9/14/2011 11:47 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
14770
But ya, !@#$ like VnT also (crez + GS) got easier on 25 because you could avoid the mechanic. No idea if you know much about the Elementium Monstrosity fight, but 25ms would trivialize P1 with 3-4 lifegrips.


V&T - Sure, as the fight wore on and it became too difficult to heal through Blackouts, we would sacrifice targets of it. But you can't forget how much different the fight is when you don't get to have one sub rogue soloing the twilight realm. Instead you would have to have 4-5 people down there with one poor healer trying to heal them all, when they would often get out of range. Not only would this vastly increase the pressure on the top side given that less people were sharing Blackouts and meteors, but the twilight team would almost never get through fully intact - often times we'd burn out our crezzes before we got to the point of sacrificing blackout targets. And if we did have one we would save it and only use it if a healer was the target.

As far as AC is concerned, lifegrips definitely allow people to be pulled out of the stack without requiring the whole room to spread. But that advantage on 25 is MORE than countered by the increased difficulty by every other mechanic in p2 and 3 that heavily punish a crowded room (lightning rods, p3 chain lightning, the general chaos of gravity wells and tornados, etc.).

No idea which you think HRag is harder on, but it's a %^-*! of a raid comp fight on 10, and despite what Paragon says with good gear and 500+ wipes of experience on the fight, the 10m progression has been pretty void of kills.


We only have heresay and speculation to go on with H-Rag. But the lack of 10man kills speaks largely to the lack of 10man elite guilds. The reason why top 100 guilds prefer 25man is obvious: it allows far more class stacking (well that and its always going to be perceived as the "real" difficulty setting, imagine how people would treat an end boss "world first" if it came on 10s??). World class guilds willing to shift around raid composition to radical levels can do that a lot more on 25s, aka the 13 or whatever druids on Nef. If you were able to compare what percentage of "mid-range" guilds went 10s this xpac with the percentage of "top-end" guilds...it would be a very different number.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Shaman
11805
09/13/2011 03:42 PMPosted by Indulgence
REIGN MEMBERS - Random trolling just to troll will not be tolerated, here or anywhere else. I don't care if you're our top raider, you're replaceable. If someone else starts it, game on.


THREE DAY BAN MEMBERS - Lack of random trolling will not be tolerated. It can be here or anywhere else. I don't care if you're out top raider, you're replaceable. If no one else starts it, get on it!


You're not my supervisor!
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
0
Re: VnT.
You realize a lot of 10mans didn't have the luxury of 1 Subt rogue to go down, because we are 10mans? For example, we didn't have a rogue on our roster until the 2nd week of Firelands, and our VnT strat had a healer + DPS going down...the bad thing about this is that not only did we have the same issue you did with dmg/etc, we essentially had to add an entire extra healer (meaning dropping 20% of our DPS) to make it work. We were fortunate we had enough people willing to play an OS for it. Also, the GS change was late (and actually, it still worked after the change in 10m...presumably it'd still work on some classes in 25s if they had any sort of -dmg cd or passive stuff, a Boomkin with perseverance and barkskin I'm sure it'd work on). Domo had a GS change too, but the point is on both early Domo and early VnT 25man got to cheese things.

Re: 25m Domo
If it's just Orbs...just keep him in Orb cat phase for 5 leaps...I don't understand why this doesn't work still. So maybe its barely harder and you have to deal with a few leaps? If the strat is that much easier, pretty sure it works on 25m with that 1 tweak. And again, the earliest Hdomo kills were cheesed by -every- 25m guild that killed them. It was nerfed. I am ~95% sure that this Domo strat would have been nerfed if it had showed up at the same time, but with the zone being nerfed next week, whats the point? Also, I dunno how you can say "every aspect of the fight is easier" unless you only mean when it's cheesed to the point that entire fight mechanics are ignored. When done legitimately (every one of our kills if you'd like to check our logs), it seems pretty much the same to me. Difference being I think you have more room for leeway on seeds (since we need seed movement timing to be perfect or he either slashes with too few people in stack, kills someone who moves into early, and/or forces a transition into cat phase).

Re: Elementium man
P2 does not punish a crowded room. Lightning Rod gives a -ton- of time to move away, and there is 0 reason to not stack up dead center once you have the correct buff, or put up a nice circle of beacons and say "don't go outside this ring unless you need to get a debuff, are kiting an orb, or have lightning rod...if you have lightning rod, go chill in a corner". The chaos with the debuffs and lightning rod can kill just as easily in 10s, and it's due to the fact people need to be getting a debuff whether they have lightning rod or not. (Also, afaik P2 was considered a free phase on both sizes) P3 I'll definitely grant seems worse on 25man, but saying "more than countered" I think is going a bit too far. P3 is not really much different than P1 for 25m.

Also, the whole "harder to see" on 25m I think is a cop out...!@#$ like shadow trap on h-LK25 was not the least bit hard to see where it was going, and it was probably the hardest to see "thing" in a raid encounter yet. I can't think of a single effect in the current tier that might be "harder to see" with a lot of people, maybe Shannox traps? Except DBM shouts at you if it lands within like a 10 yard radius.

As for the top end guilds going 25 and not 10, it's really a self fulfilling prophecy. They have all assumed from the start that 25 must be harder (even when it factually wasn't) and thus only 25s "count". As such, any guild that switches is looked down upon with 0 factual basis. The smarter people understand that any guild switching from 25 to 10s is cheesing the system and doesn't deserve rankings (mid-tier or w/e, doing it at the start of a tier or after progression is done is fine), and in fact I think Ensidia tried to do this the first week of t11, gearing people in 25m, then trying 10m HMs...lol they couldn't kill the overtuned 10m HMs, went back to 25s and got kills.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16690
You realize a lot of 10mans didn't have the luxury of 1 Subt rogue to go down, because we are 10mans? For example, we didn't have a rogue on our roster until the 2nd week of Firelands, and our VnT strat had a healer + DPS going down...the bad thing about this is that not only did we have the same issue you did with dmg/etc, we essentially had to add an entire extra healer (meaning dropping 20% of our DPS) to make it work.


We lost our Sub rogue mid-progression on V&T. We didn't have a rogue again till the very end of the tier while we made our progression kill using warlocks, mages, and a holy paladin or two to go down. Just because we're 25 doesn't mean we always have comp benefits.

Also, I dunno how you can say "every aspect of the fight is easier" unless you only mean when it's cheesed to the point that entire fight mechanics are ignored. When done legitimately (every one of our kills if you'd like to check our logs), it seems pretty much the same to me. Difference being I think you have more room for leeway on seeds (since we need seed movement timing to be perfect or he either slashes with too few people in stack, kills someone who moves into early, and/or forces a transition into cat phase).


I meant that, having done normal 10 before normal 25, that normal 10 is an absolute joke compared to 25. Going in with no idea how the fight worked beyond the names of the abilities and little-no cooldown coordination and we 2-shot Domo 10 N with a random group with a skill spread that represented the average in our 25-man (in week 1 of FL.)

The following week, it takes us the better part of a full night to kill him on 25-man with another full week's worth of upgrades. Absolutely every aspect of that fight hit us harder on 25-man, when it should have been easier considering the skill spread was the same, we had a week's worth of gear over the previous kill, and we had 10 people who had already killed the fight.

My point was that if that gap translates over to heroic (and I don't know whether or not it does) than absolutely everything about the fight (with the exception of Searing Seeds, which seems equal) is easier to handle on 10-man.

As for the cheesy 10-man strat - It's only really better if your group has exceptionally low dps. Otherwise there's no reason to bother.

I can't think of a single effect in the current tier that might be "harder to see" with a lot of people, maybe Shannox traps? Except DBM shouts at you if it lands within like a 10 yard radius.


Magma lines. The increase in ground AoE effects (and the 80-foot tall !@#$% that is Lord Rhyolith) from 10 -> 25 make them more difficult to see. Add in that dbm only tells you when the cylinder thingger is rising out of the volacano and not when the lines are anywhere near you...
Edited by Gistwiki on 9/14/2011 6:55 PM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Orc Hunter
2825
www.meatspin.com

2,063 spins and counting, who can beat me!?


43,323 SPINS OMFG MY EYES ARE BLEEDING YET I AM STILL GOING!
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
0
We lost our Sub rogue mid-progression on V&T. We didn't have a rogue again till the very end of the tier while we made our progression kill using warlocks, mages, and a holy paladin or two to go down. Just because we're 25 doesn't mean we always have comp benefits.


Granted, but it is less common for something like this to happen in a 25 than a 10.

I meant that, having done normal 10 before normal 25, that normal 10 is an absolute joke compared to 25. Going in with no idea how the fight worked beyond the names of the abilities and little-no cooldown coordination and we 2-shot Domo 10 N with a random group with a skill spread that represented the average in our 25-man (in week 1 of FL.)
The following week, it takes us the better part of a full night to kill him on 25-man with another full week's worth of upgrades. Absolutely every aspect of that fight hit us harder on 25-man, when it should have been easier considering the skill spread was the same, we had a week's worth of gear over the previous kill, and we had 10 people who had already killed the fight.


Eh, I don't feel normal anything matters at all in this game. Nobody anywhere cares about world first Domo normal or world first Rag normal or anything else of the sort. If you failed at Domo 25 normal, it really was player error, and if anything I think this speaks as to the true difficulty of 25m - finding 24 people worth raiding with. You say the skill was the same, but since that's not possible to prove, I think you're just wrong. To struggle that much with any normal mode (except maybe Rag, who's probably on the level of an easier heroic) I think means that average skill level is pretty low.

As for the cheesy 10-man strat - It's only really better if your group has exceptionally low dps. Otherwise there's no reason to bother.


K well, I dunno why it's brought up though. Yea, I guess the fight can be cheesed, it was originally cheesed on 25m, neither of them is a legitimate way to kill it really, and as I've said multiple times now, had this been in the first 2 weeks of FL, I guarantee you Blizzard would have nerfed it somehow like the did the other cheese method, but when FL is nerfed next week, why would they make the fight "harder" just to then make it easier.

Magma lines. The increase in ground AoE effects (and the 80-foot tall !@#$% that is Lord Rhyolith) from 10 -> 25 make them more difficult to see. Add in that dbm only tells you when the cylinder thingger is rising out of the volacano and not when the lines are anywhere near you...


I'm still not sure I understand...if someone is blocking a magma line, that means they are standing in a magma line? lol...if people aren't standing in the line, you should see it, meaning if people are doing it right, it should be okay? Personally, I find if you're right under Rhyolith, it's impossible to see because all you can see is his leg, but no amount of player clutter could make me miss that...I raided hardcore 40man and 25man (at the top of progression) and people always uses this type of !@#$ as an excuse then too, and I argued against it then too, sorry but I just don't buy it as more than an excuse for being bad. I'd be shocked if there wasn't at least one person in OL who's told people to stop sucking and pay attention in response to said excuse also.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16690
Eh, I don't feel normal anything matters at all in this game. Nobody anywhere cares about world first Domo normal or world first Rag normal or anything else of the sort. If you failed at Domo 25 normal, it really was player error, and if anything I think this speaks as to the true difficulty of 25m - finding 24 people worth raiding with. You say the skill was the same, but since that's not possible to prove, I think you're just wrong. To struggle that much with any normal mode (except maybe Rag, who's probably on the level of an easier heroic) I think means that average skill level is pretty low.


I don't know that going from 2-shotting something to 10-12 shotting something counts as struggling, but the biggest factor that I noticed was that it looked like 25 players were getting hit harder through raid cooldowns than the 10 players were without them. As handling Flame Scythes/healing through them has always seemed like the hardest aspect of the fight to me (a part of the reason many guilds opt to ignore the mechanic completely on heroic, though there's more to it than that to be sure) that this mechanic hits 20% harder per player (75000 damage per person in 10s vs 90000 per person in 25s) makes it significantly more difficult to handle.

That said, yes lolnormal.

K well, I dunno why it's brought up though. Yea, I guess the fight can be cheesed, it was originally cheesed on 25m, neither of them is a legitimate way to kill it really, and as I've said multiple times now, had this been in the first 2 weeks of FL, I guarantee you Blizzard would have nerfed it somehow like the did the other cheese method, but when FL is nerfed next week, why would they make the fight "harder" just to then make it easier.


Brought it up because it's a 10-man only cheese more than anything else. How you'd end up handling orbs makes it not worth it in 25s tbh.

I'm still not sure I understand...if someone is blocking a magma line, that means they are standing in a magma line? lol...if people aren't standing in the line, you should see it, meaning if people are doing it right, it should be okay? Personally, I find if you're right under Rhyolith, it's impossible to see because all you can see is his leg, but no amount of player clutter could make me miss that...I raided hardcore 40man and 25man (at the top of progression) and people always uses this type of !@#$ as an excuse then too, and I argued against it then too, sorry but I just don't buy it as more than an excuse for being bad. I'd be shocked if there wasn't at least one person in OL who's told people to stop sucking and pay attention in response to said excuse also.


See a tiny fiery line in the ground through the 3 frost traps/immo traps, 2+ Hellfires, the aforementioned 80 foot tall dildo, and 3-4 Healer ground effects while on minimum graphics settings and we'll talk. I personally move out of the group to avoid it because I don't want to take the risk that I'll miss a magma line through all that crap.

Is it impossible? No, not really. Is it significantly more difficult? Absolutely.

I don't think anyone has said it seriously, no. Our officer core (oh god am I going to get some elbows in my ribs for this one) is generally nice. We haven't had a "you suck" type person in a position of power since Audacity left, and that was before I joined.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Mage
0
So, how bout those Firelands nerfs?
Reply Quote
100 Troll Druid
8365
They were heavy handed. Honestly though, designing half the encounters for 2 healers and 1 tank was a bad design choice to start with.

This tier... it is so bad.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Hunter
0
They were heavy handed. Honestly though, designing half the encounters for 2 healers and 1 tank was a bad design choice to start with.

This tier... it is so bad.


How do you feel about fights being 2tank 1healed? Or even 1tank 1healed! (This applies to at least 2 heroic encounters now!)

Overall though, until yesterday, I felt this tier was very well done. Yesterdays nerfs were too large too soon. ICC model was much better done IMO.
Edited by Iconoclast on 9/21/2011 3:12 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Troll Druid
8365
I think the hp nerf to the bosses so that you can use more traditonal 10 man comps was maybe slightly more waranted than the damage nerf. Both were too much too soon, and combining them at the same time was not a good idea.

I don't know, this tier has great cohessive look and feel to it that truly does feel epic along with some really incredible fights (Alyssrazor is the best designed fight in the game IMO). But it also only has 7 fights, and one of them is Rhyolith.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
16690
They were heavy handed. Honestly though, designing half the encounters for 2 healers and 1 tank was a bad design choice to start with.

This tier... it is so bad.


How do you feel about fights being 2tank 1healed? Or even 1tank 1healed! (This applies to at least 2 heroic encounters now!)

Overall though, until yesterday, I felt this tier was very well done. Yesterdays nerfs were too large too soon. ICC model was much better done IMO.


So very very agreed. The nerfs are too soon and hit too hard >.>

The ICC model of nerfing bosses was better done, yes. I like everything else about Firelands more though personally.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]