Too Soon: The Issue With Early Nerfs

85 Human Paladin
11570

Ensuring that they keep as many as possible from 99% of the playerbase far outweighs the loss or potential loss in the 1% of players who act like Blizzard kicked their dog with this change. Not a hard concept to grasp.


not hard...at all.

but they will not retain 99% of playerbase.

they're doing a maneuver trying to retain 99% and the end result will be losing more than otherwise.

is that one hard?
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17810

Ensuring that they keep as many as possible from 99% of the playerbase far outweighs the loss or potential loss in the 1% of players who act like Blizzard kicked their dog with this change. Not a hard concept to grasp.


not hard...at all.

but they will not retain 99% of playerbase.

they're doing a maneuver trying to retain 99% and the end result will be losing more than otherwise.

is that one hard?


Blizzard realizes they'll be losing a lot of subs this Fall. They're doing damage control to try to salvage as many as possible. Losing 1/3 of the 1% of the populace that would even consider quitting over this is nothing compared to the amount of players they could potentially keep around by getting them hooked on the content farther from the 99%.

They'll lose subs. They're taking precautions to ensure they lose as few as possible. When 4.3 this, everything is back to normal.
Edited by Bullettime on 9/12/2011 10:02 PM PDT
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85 Human Paladin
11570
are you making this up as you go? can you share with the class where at least some of your numbers come from?

i see
1%
1/3
99%

I get the 99%. its 100%-1%. where do the others come from? and why do you know so much about blizzard and we dont?
Edited by Robokapp on 9/12/2011 10:09 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Priest
12090
@Bullettime

How the heck does nerfing hardmodes with normal modes increase subscriptions. People arent quitting because the game is too hard. People are quitting because because of the fall out of the core players. So many players are looking for something new, something of a new challenge and are willing to play quite crappy but newer games to do so (you know the ones I speak of).

The fact is while it looks like everything is changing for the betterment of the game its often the imperfections and unattainable goals that kept us there in the first place.

Ask any long time pvp'er what pvp moments they enjoyed in the game most. Every single one will mention the world pvp in Southshore or Crossroads... or mention the All-Day AV games.
Raiders usually remember seeing those guys with gear way above them sitting in Org/IF and aspiring to be that good. Or High end Raiders fondly remember the days of running back for 15min to wipe in 30secs on Cthun. Or the sheer performance perfection required in Sunwell. But to the majority of players who had remained loyal and been the core base of players for 7 years thats what was fun.

The original designers of the game designed it as a game they wanted to play. They made it with the idea of seeing what they wanted to see and NOT what would sell the most copies. Instead of trying to please 12million people which is impossible please make this game something to stand out. That's why this is one of the most successful game franchises of all time.

"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not only because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too." --JFK 1962

I chose to invest 7 years of my free time in this game and in the people I shared those experiences with for the same reasons. Not because I have no life outside this game but because this game gave me the ability to put a lot of effort/time/thought into while still feeling rewarding. With Blizzard's history of quality and long development times I always assumed the same was true of the Dev team.
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100 Human Priest
14965
Such bad timing, you don't nerf content like this in the middle of a tier, especially not heroics where the whole point of the content is to provide challenges that improve a person's game play. You know why people love this game? It's because they get to play with friends and accomplish something that takes the effort of more than just themselves. Doing things like nerfing the fights before the tier is even over only makes people not want to bother with trying, it makes all kills after the nerf meaningless.

Soon the only thing epic about this game will be the fanart renditions of fights we'll look back on fondly and go "I remember when that was hard".
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4.3 Deathwing, will be nerfed before the expansion, meaning I'm better off not bothering until the end of the expansion, it'll be a nice 8 or 9 months off, then I'll come in in firelands gear and kill heroic deathwing post nerf.
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100 Troll Hunter
13355
09/12/2011 07:59 PMPosted by Zarynia
First time I have "liked" a thread OP on RnD
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100 Troll Druid
10025
I think some of you are getting a bit off topic. There's a fair bit of speculation about their reasoning, but it doesn't really matter. The point is that the reasoning is flawed because it threatens more than it fixes. If they've lost subscriptions, it's because they went from easy mode encounters for normal modes to much harder normal modes. They should at this point most likely go with the third difficulty as soon as possible.
Edited by Ashunei on 9/13/2011 12:25 AM PDT
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100 Human Priest
23670
09/12/2011 09:58 PMPosted by Dubalicious
The one encounter in an entire content patch that wasn't defeated the week it was released and it's nerfed after less than 50 guilds in the world defeat it.


Heroic Rag was overtuned in comparison to most similar content in the past. Whether that was a good thing or a bad thing depends on your perspective, but it's really freaking obvious why they nerfed him.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
11780
@Bullettime

How the heck does nerfing hardmodes with normal modes increase subscriptions. People arent quitting because the game is too hard. People are quitting because because of the fall out of the core players. So many players are looking for something new, something of a new challenge and are willing to play quite crappy but newer games to do so (you know the ones I speak of).



You say this as if you know why the close to 1 million players left as of the last quarter.

My bet is that Blizzard knows far more than you do and the difficulty of raid content must have ranked high enough that they blinked and responded to the loss of subscriptions.

People can say all they want that the number of players who will leave due to this will be higher than what they will retain or get back.

However, no one knows.

I can say they will see a net gain. Someone else can say they will lose players.

This whole expansion has been amusing for me since those of us who said that Blizzard deciding to make all content harder while making tanking and healing more difficult was going to be a disaster and cause a huge loss of subscriptions. So far this has played out as true.

I think Blizzard has finally realized that the players who said that harder content would bring huge numbers of players to the game were wrong all along. Many of those same players told people who disagreed to learn to play or leave the game. I guess enough finally did to cause Blizzard to respond.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8200
Changes like these just further reinforce the idea if all you want to do is see content, dont play for a year or so and come back in the final months of the expansion. Its like telling players if they are struggling with content to just quit until the nerfs. Not such a great business model.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 9/13/2011 1:54 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Hunter
11780
09/13/2011 01:54 AMPosted by Noctemtenchi
Changes like these just further reinforce the idea if all you want to do is see content, dont play for a year or so and come back in the final months of the expansion. Its like telling players if they are struggling with content to just quit until the nerfs. Not such a great business model.


Or maybe it tells people to hang in there a few months(keep paying) and the content will be made available to you while the tier is current.

A great business model.

None of us will know which is right unless they try it.

We know the current business model is not working out well for them.
Edited by Ariktu on 9/13/2011 2:03 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
9025
When the Tier 11 nerfs hit, I was annoyed. Just annoyed. I didn't think they were necessary. It was unprecedented. Prior to this, nerfs only happened at the end of the expansion cycle, and during the course of the expansion content self-nerfed with the advent of better gear.

I came to grips with the Tier 11 nerfs. Mainly because my raid group managed to successfully tackle Nefarian and reach 12/12 normal the week before they hit.

We raid on a relatively brief schedule: Twice a week for 2.5 hours at a time. In the last 11 weeks of Tier 12, we've achieved 4/7 status, with Alysrazor, Majordomo, and Ragnaros to go. Our slow progression has not been due to the difficulty of the encounters but rather to difficulty in finding and keeping a good offtank.

Tier 11 took us 4 months to complete. 16 weeks. In those 16 weeks we tackled all 12 normal mode bosses. It was slow at first, and we got a late start, but as our gear level rose progression accelerated and toward the end we found ourselves downing 1-2 new bosses a week, then it was Cho'gall after 2 weeks, Al'Akir after 2 weeks, then Nefarian after 4 weeks.

We've been at Tier 12 for 11 weeks. Our first 3 weeks we focused strongly on Heroic Tier 11 content to help us gear up, as we lacked the DPS for Beth'Tilac and Baleroc. During those weeks we would defeat Shannox and then go to Heroic Halfus, and Heroic Magmaw, ect.

Eventually, via Valor Points and defeating Shannox and Heroic modes, we reached the point where we finally had the output to survive Beth'Tilac. The following week, we toppled our Guild First Lord Rhyolith and Baleroc in the same lockout.

Then disaster struck, and offtank trouble began anew. Recruiting a new offtank last week, we geared him up in Tier 11 on our first raid night, and proceeded to get 2/7 on our second raid night.

This week we planned to go back to Alys and resume progression.

Only to be greeted by the news that effective next week, the content is going to be nerfed.

I remember how drastically you nerfed Tier 11. It was horrible. Reasonably challenging encounters became utter faceroll for us. It wasn't even fun anymore.

Please, don't do that to Firelands. We aren't ready for that. We're here for the challenge, so don't take the challenge away. Just because the screaming masses grew up playing video games with their Game Genies for invincibility and unlimited lives and are demanding easy content, doesn't mean you should cave in to it. The teeming hordes of casuals want 5-man content. Nerfing Tier 12 isn't going to motivate them to form 10-man groups.

To quote the OP, and Ragnaros himself, it's simply "TOO SOON".
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100 Human Mage
19795
Nerfing this soon says to casual time limited groups - sorry, you are too slow, you need to pick up the pace, here have some help. Now, this isn't the end of the world because if heroic modes are nerfed to where they don't feel like being soaked in boiling acid, they might suffice to provide new challenges to enjoy for the rest of the tier.

I definitely agree with the OP on many points except the accessibility of normal mode content and as a casual friends and family raid leader I have this to say as support for early nerfs:

I have felt that normal mode 10 man has been way too overtuned throughout this expansion to the point where at progression levels if you make a single mistake you call wipe. I'm ok with this level of perfection in heroic modes but for normal modes I expect a bit of wiggle room. In fact some of the most memorable fights are where you pull a win after scrambling to recover from some huge mistake.

Now I will say the first three bosses in FL after they were nerfed feel on par with how I imagine normal mode raiding should be. They require good play but have some wiggle room (ok maybe except if your tank falls through the web). But Baleroc and beyond are pretty much one mistake you wipe. Maybe two mistakes if you can brez one dead person. This type of play is very fatiguing and not all that enjoyable. It's to the point where I don't even think about doing heroic modes because normal modes are so hard. If your healers aren't amazing, you don't do heroics.

Because of the elevated difficulty I have two groups not in Firelands. One group has been in T11 since that tier was released. It's a bit tiring to stay in the same raid while you see others talking about new fights and the Molten Front dailies introduced a raid you aren't participating in.

Why aren't we in T12? I had to make an adjustment to remove a really poor performer. This sucks because it's a 10 yo kid who was so excited to be able to play with the big boys/girls and play with his dad. Yes, I feel like a total loser for this move and hate this aspect of the game, but I wanted to get the group in FL. So now, I lost two raiders (dad is doing other stuff with his son). One healer has RL stuff going on right now and is out for a month or two. And the other healer also took on RL events to do stuff with his daughters. So I have replacements but they need gear and experience. FL stuff is currently too hard though I think we might be able to tackle the nerfed first three bosses if we have two 30k crit damagers in the group.

The other group is more of a guild pug with some regulars which has less than ideal class makeup. I think we had three pallies, three rogues, and three priests one week. While this type of random makeup works ok for nerfed T11, I can't see it working well in T12 some weeks.

So, both groups are bored of the same old content but not quite capable of the new stuff and while they might eventually get three bosses it's very doubtful they'd move beyond that. This means if the nerf happened at 4.3 those groups would be an entire tier behind at that point and won't be able to enjoy the final raid that all the new non-raid content coming out is hyping. That means going into the three new 5 mans, seeing how important it is for everyone to kill Deathwing, and then going back to kill Shannox, Beth, etc for months in order to get enough gear to survive a pull of T13.

On the flip side, as that same casual time limited friends and family leader I also have this to say about nerfing content this early:

We really should have an easy mode difficulty and leave the other two alone. It's sucky to punish time limited groups especially over summer when attendance has been cruddy. I'll never know if my group could have done Domo or Rag as they are now and that rather sucks because I was expecting a few more months before accepting defeat. I hope my later group goes after Rag with extended lockout to see if we can beat him pre-nerf, but we just got to him and we haven't had that many pulls so far. So we get two days to try with this one week warning.

Blizzard needs to really think about a solution to gearing speed if they want to accelerate content delivery, have everyone migrating to the new raid tier, yet keep raids hard. Having normal mode be so hard you only kill the last boss (or maybe stuck at 4/7) the week before the new tier is out means you are undergeared for the next tier and can't participate for months yet or if you can down entry bosses you are replacing gear you just got. Either way feels unsatisfactory and rushed.

So there you have it - Too soon and not soon enough in one reply :P
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80 Blood Elf Hunter
0
Bullettime,


You do know that the way games like this work is that when all the elite players go to another game the casuals follow suit as well.


When the casuals have no one to look up to and say "oooo i want that too" or have anyone to carry them to loot/gear whatever they end up quitting or going to the next game that everyone went to. When websites such as EJ/AJ/ and the like end up switching to another game or dying off people wont be able to learn.



This happened with Everquest, it will happen with WoW as well.


This happens with a lot of things when the best of the best leave it the "lower class" follows suit and leaves as well.
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80 Night Elf Druid
19805
T11 normal modes were overtuned, and T12 normal modes probably too. A lot of more "casual" players probably gave up on raiding after attempting T11. I imagine the number of people attempting T12 is way down and these nerfs are a belated realization on Blizzard's part of this.

So they should probably nerf normal modes. However I agree that they shouldn't nerf Heroics. Heroics should be aimed at the elite of the elite, the top 5% of players. If they want to make an easier heroic mode then they need to make a third difficulty level.
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90 Gnome Death Knight
6880
I've always liked your posts, Ashunei. Well thought out, and I completely agree.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
Liked all 3 of the OP posts. Well said.
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70 Human Rogue
390
I really don't want to see hard modes nerfed so soon. My guild just recovered from losing both tanks and a core healer to burnout and we are finally beginning serious attempts on hard modes again after 3 weeks of getting the replacements geared.
Edited by Barion on 9/13/2011 7:35 AM PDT
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85 Human Mage
14130
Thank you for that post Ashunei. I could not have put it any better myself. And honestly, at this point I don't have the ambition to.

I wonder what would happen if the top 200 guilds in the world unsubscribed right before the fiscal quarter ended. Just as a social experiment. See what the higher ups think of that.
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