Dragonwrath impossible for 10 man guilds? #3

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Community Manager
I don't think that's the point most (reasonable) people are trying to argue, though. Every single legendary churned out to date has come from 25 man raids. Some have 1, nearly 2; some have 2, nearly 3.


That's another issue, though it has less to do with drop rates and more to do with how the quest can reasonably be completed. We came up with a "parallelization" concept where a player could be on phase 3 of making Dragonwrath, while another raider in the same group could be on phase 2. We thought that would feel better for the players involved, and it did, but more because they were getting their staves faster than for any other reason. The real problem with this idea is that it made it very difficult to balance the time investment it takes to create a staff. The first staff might take x amount of time to create, but then subsequent staves could potentially come out the door a lot faster.

Legendaries aren't very legendary if 20% of the raiding population is carrying them -- never mind the ripple effects that their presence can have on game balance in PvE and PvP. Ultimately, 'parallelization' made a too powerful item, too easy to get, too quickly. In short, it was a mistake that we regret, and one we won't be repeating in the future. It also left us with a situation that we needed to address, though, which is why we nerfed the quest item drop rates to begin with.

All of that is merely by way of explaining how we arrived at this point. The heart of the issue for many of you has been 10-player raid drop rates and I’d like to take a moment to thank those of you who provided clear, constructive feedback in these threads and elsewhere. It’s been really valuable during our deliberations and helped us arrive at a decision that we think will address our concerns and yours.

We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

    • 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
    • 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.

We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.
41 Gnome Priest
310
09/08/2011 01:18 PMPosted by Phroto
[quote]

10 man raiding IS NOT eaiser. Thats the reason they share the same lockout.

Stop your BS trolling


Is is just easier to get 10 really good players together then it is to get 25 really good players thus giving the illustion that 10-man is easier.


Well, you can carry a few people in 25m, you can't really carry people in 10m. Logistics in 25m is harder but the content is about the same and you have more room for error or sub-par players.
100 Human Warlock
15230
09/08/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I don't think that's the point most (reasonable) people are trying to argue, though. Every single legendary churned out to date has come from 25 man raids. Some have 1, nearly 2; some have 2, nearly 3.


That's another issue, though it has less to do with drop rates and more to do with how the quest can reasonably be completed. We came up with a "parallelization" concept where a player could be on phase 3 of making Dragonwrath, while another raider in the same group could be on phase 2. We thought that would feel better for the players involved, and it did, but more because they were getting their staves faster than for any other reason. The real problem with this idea is that it made it very difficult to balance the time investment it takes to create a staff. The first staff might take x amount of time to create, but then subsequent staves could potentially come out the door a lot faster.

Legendaries aren't very legendary if 20% of the raiding population is carrying them -- never mind the ripple effects that their presence can have on game balance in PvE and PvP. Ultimately, 'parallelization' made a too powerful item, too easy to get, too quickly. In short, it was a mistake that we regret, and one we won't be repeating in the future. It also left us with a situation that we needed to address, though, which is why we nerfed the quest item drop rates to begin with.

All of that is merely by way of explaining how we arrived at this point. The heart of the issue for many of you has been 10-player raid drop rates and I’d like to take a moment to thank those of you who provided clear, constructive feedback in these threads and elsewhere. It’s been really valuable during our deliberations and helped us arrive at a decision that we think will address our concerns and yours.

We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

    • 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
    • 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.

We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.


Problem solved! Thank you very, very much for the response!! :D
85 Human Warlock
8725
I think i love you mr blue.
85 Draenei Priest
10970
09/08/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I don't think that's the point most (reasonable) people are trying to argue, though. Every single legendary churned out to date has come from 25 man raids. Some have 1, nearly 2; some have 2, nearly 3.


That's another issue, though it has less to do with drop rates and more to do with how the quest can reasonably be completed. We came up with a "parallelization" concept where a player could be on phase 3 of making Dragonwrath, while another raider in the same group could be on phase 2. We thought that would feel better for the players involved, and it did, but more because they were getting their staves faster than for any other reason. The real problem with this idea is that it made it very difficult to balance the time investment it takes to create a staff. The first staff might take x amount of time to create, but then subsequent staves could potentially come out the door a lot faster.

Legendaries aren't very legendary if 20% of the raiding population is carrying them -- never mind the ripple effects that their presence can have on game balance in PvE and PvP. Ultimately, 'parallelization' made a too powerful item, too easy to get, too quickly. In short, it was a mistake that we regret, and one we won't be repeating in the future. It also left us with a situation that we needed to address, though, which is why we nerfed the quest item drop rates to begin with.

All of that is merely by way of explaining how we arrived at this point. The heart of the issue for many of you has been 10-player raid drop rates and I’d like to take a moment to thank those of you who provided clear, constructive feedback in these threads and elsewhere. It’s been really valuable during our deliberations and helped us arrive at a decision that we think will address our concerns and yours.

We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

    • 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
    • 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.

We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.


Thank you very much for demonstrating to the 10m community that you do care. Much appreciated.
85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

    • 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
    • 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.

We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.


Huzzah!

<-- 25 player raider.

Gonna miss my super fast legendaries but so glad you fixed the issue for the 10's. No, that's not sarcasm. They were really getting jobbed.
Edited by Charsi on 9/8/2011 1:24 PM PDT
91 Blood Elf Warlock
8915
Thank You!!!!!!
85 Worgen Warlock
10040
09/08/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I don't think that's the point most (reasonable) people are trying to argue, though. Every single legendary churned out to date has come from 25 man raids. Some have 1, nearly 2; some have 2, nearly 3.


That's another issue, though it has less to do with drop rates and more to do with how the quest can reasonably be completed. We came up with a "parallelization" concept where a player could be on phase 3 of making Dragonwrath, while another raider in the same group could be on phase 2. We thought that would feel better for the players involved, and it did, but more because they were getting their staves faster than for any other reason. The real problem with this idea is that it made it very difficult to balance the time investment it takes to create a staff. The first staff might take x amount of time to create, but then subsequent staves could potentially come out the door a lot faster.

Legendaries aren't very legendary if 20% of the raiding population is carrying them -- never mind the ripple effects that their presence can have on game balance in PvE and PvP. Ultimately, 'parallelization' made a too powerful item, too easy to get, too quickly. In short, it was a mistake that we regret, and one we won't be repeating in the future. It also left us with a situation that we needed to address, though, which is why we nerfed the quest item drop rates to begin with.

All of that is merely by way of explaining how we arrived at this point. The heart of the issue for many of you has been 10-player raid drop rates and I’d like to take a moment to thank those of you who provided clear, constructive feedback in these threads and elsewhere. It’s been really valuable during our deliberations and helped us arrive at a decision that we think will address our concerns and yours.

We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

    • 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
    • 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.

We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.


Bring out the champagne and confetti, its a small one, but its a victory none the less.
90 Draenei Mage
7935
09/08/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I don't think that's the point most (reasonable) people are trying to argue, though. Every single legendary churned out to date has come from 25 man raids. Some have 1, nearly 2; some have 2, nearly 3.


That's another issue, though it has less to do with drop rates and more to do with how the quest can reasonably be completed. We came up with a "parallelization" concept where a player could be on phase 3 of making Dragonwrath, while another raider in the same group could be on phase 2. We thought that would feel better for the players involved, and it did, but more because they were getting their staves faster than for any other reason. The real problem with this idea is that it made it very difficult to balance the time investment it takes to create a staff. The first staff might take x amount of time to create, but then subsequent staves could potentially come out the door a lot faster.

Legendaries aren't very legendary if 20% of the raiding population is carrying them -- never mind the ripple effects that their presence can have on game balance in PvE and PvP. Ultimately, 'parallelization' made a too powerful item, too easy to get, too quickly. In short, it was a mistake that we regret, and one we won't be repeating in the future. It also left us with a situation that we needed to address, though, which is why we nerfed the quest item drop rates to begin with.

All of that is merely by way of explaining how we arrived at this point. The heart of the issue for many of you has been 10-player raid drop rates and I’d like to take a moment to thank those of you who provided clear, constructive feedback in these threads and elsewhere. It’s been really valuable during our deliberations and helped us arrive at a decision that we think will address our concerns and yours.

We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

    • 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
    • 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.

We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.


I haven't even finished reading, but I love you.
41 Gnome Priest
310
We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

    • 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
    • 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.

We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.


Finally some good news! Thanks a lot, now 10mans might be able to build a staff.
90 Human Warrior
9620
Great news.
85 Worgen Druid
11630
From the bottom of our caster hearts - thank you Blizzard.
90 Night Elf Hunter
11010
09/08/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I don't think that's the point most (reasonable) people are trying to argue, though. Every single legendary churned out to date has come from 25 man raids. Some have 1, nearly 2; some have 2, nearly 3.


That's another issue, though it has less to do with drop rates and more to do with how the quest can reasonably be completed. We came up with a "parallelization" concept where a player could be on phase 3 of making Dragonwrath, while another raider in the same group could be on phase 2. We thought that would feel better for the players involved, and it did, but more because they were getting their staves faster than for any other reason. The real problem with this idea is that it made it very difficult to balance the time investment it takes to create a staff. The first staff might take x amount of time to create, but then subsequent staves could potentially come out the door a lot faster.

Legendaries aren't very legendary if 20% of the raiding population is carrying them -- never mind the ripple effects that their presence can have on game balance in PvE and PvP. Ultimately, 'parallelization' made a too powerful item, too easy to get, too quickly. In short, it was a mistake that we regret, and one we won't be repeating in the future. It also left us with a situation that we needed to address, though, which is why we nerfed the quest item drop rates to begin with.

All of that is merely by way of explaining how we arrived at this point. The heart of the issue for many of you has been 10-player raid drop rates and I’d like to take a moment to thank those of you who provided clear, constructive feedback in these threads and elsewhere. It’s been really valuable during our deliberations and helped us arrive at a decision that we think will address our concerns and yours.

We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

    • 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
    • 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.

We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.


Nice to be heard once in awhile! TY as I am sure my guild members on this Legendary chain will welcome the news.
90 Human Paladin
21905
so whats gonna be the drop rate in 10man normal per boss ?
90 Orc Shaman
18715
09/08/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal.


Tip o my hat to you, Daxx!

(and your other co-deliberators on this issue)
85 Worgen Druid
5890
Excellent. This pleases me. Thank you for not only listening to our feedback but taking action on it when necessary. /hug
85 Tauren Paladin
7685
09/08/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I don't think that's the point most (reasonable) people are trying to argue, though. Every single legendary churned out to date has come from 25 man raids. Some have 1, nearly 2; some have 2, nearly 3.


That's another issue, though it has less to do with drop rates and more to do with how the quest can reasonably be completed. We came up with a "parallelization" concept where a player could be on phase 3 of making Dragonwrath, while another raider in the same group could be on phase 2. We thought that would feel better for the players involved, and it did, but more because they were getting their staves faster than for any other reason. The real problem with this idea is that it made it very difficult to balance the time investment it takes to create a staff. The first staff might take x amount of time to create, but then subsequent staves could potentially come out the door a lot faster.

Legendaries aren't very legendary if 20% of the raiding population is carrying them -- never mind the ripple effects that their presence can have on game balance in PvE and PvP. Ultimately, 'parallelization' made a too powerful item, too easy to get, too quickly. In short, it was a mistake that we regret, and one we won't be repeating in the future. It also left us with a situation that we needed to address, though, which is why we nerfed the quest item drop rates to begin with.

All of that is merely by way of explaining how we arrived at this point. The heart of the issue for many of you has been 10-player raid drop rates and I’d like to take a moment to thank those of you who provided clear, constructive feedback in these threads and elsewhere. It’s been really valuable during our deliberations and helped us arrive at a decision that we think will address our concerns and yours.

We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

    • 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
    • 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.

We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.

Daxx, please pass our thanks on to everyone that was at the table when this decision was made. It's nice to see a sliver of the old Blizzard mindset pop up again and for yall to admit "hey, we were a bit too hasty, we're sorry". This solution is perfect and I know that many of us thank you sincerely for this. <3
Community Manager
09/08/2011 01:26 PMPosted by Phroto
Nice to be heard once in awhile! TY as I am sure my guild members on this Legendary chain will welcome the news.


We might not always agree, but we're always listening.
90 Human Death Knight
16495
09/08/2011 01:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
I don't think that's the point most (reasonable) people are trying to argue, though. Every single legendary churned out to date has come from 25 man raids. Some have 1, nearly 2; some have 2, nearly 3.


That's another issue, though it has less to do with drop rates and more to do with how the quest can reasonably be completed. We came up with a "parallelization" concept where a player could be on phase 3 of making Dragonwrath, while another raider in the same group could be on phase 2. We thought that would feel better for the players involved, and it did, but more because they were getting their staves faster than for any other reason. The real problem with this idea is that it made it very difficult to balance the time investment it takes to create a staff. The first staff might take x amount of time to create, but then subsequent staves could potentially come out the door a lot faster.

Legendaries aren't very legendary if 20% of the raiding population is carrying them -- never mind the ripple effects that their presence can have on game balance in PvE and PvP. Ultimately, 'parallelization' made a too powerful item, too easy to get, too quickly. In short, it was a mistake that we regret, and one we won't be repeating in the future. It also left us with a situation that we needed to address, though, which is why we nerfed the quest item drop rates to begin with.

All of that is merely by way of explaining how we arrived at this point. The heart of the issue for many of you has been 10-player raid drop rates and I’d like to take a moment to thank those of you who provided clear, constructive feedback in these threads and elsewhere. It’s been really valuable during our deliberations and helped us arrive at a decision that we think will address our concerns and yours.

We’ve decided to revert the drop rate change for 10-player heroic Firelands completely. We’ll also be slightly buffing the drop rates in 10-player normal. In the end, we should get the following results:

    • 25-player heroic has 44% lower drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.
    • 25-player normal remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player heroic remains unchanged from 4.2 launch.
    • 10-player normal has 33% higher drop rates in phase 3 relative to 4.2 launch.

We plan to hotfix the new rates into place as soon as possible, and we should see them in-place pre-raid this evening barring unforeseen complications.


Justice. Thank you so much.
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