A call to get Gilneas back.

90 Human Death Knight
13050
Well I think since not many have really made any threads or talked of any ideas to get Gilneas back, I thought I'd start a thread about one. I know this may have been talked about many times in the past but I really do feel that we should have Gilneas return for the Alliance and restore the Gilnean culture and identity. Gilneas was probably one of the most interesting kingdoms due to its distinct Victorian architecture, it's sense of industry and technological prowess, as well as the gruff and proud nature of its citizens the Gilneans. A lot of these seemed very appealing when I first read about them a long time ago and now that Gilneas has rejoined the Alliance I was thrilled to have such a proud nation join up. Unfortunately it is now a war zone, and is in slight PvP limbo but I have yet to give up hope that the Alliance will return to it and help reclaim it again. I am sure that some would cry foul since it is housed in Silverpine but I'm sure there's some way to make great use of it for the Alliance and it still belongs rightfully to the Gilneans because they still have homes there.

So I'm curious if there's anyone out here that supports the return of Gilneas and for it to be given back as a full Alliance kingdom with quests possibly involving it again. I am also very welcome to ideas that would qualify for the kingdom to make a return again.

Some reasons why I feel Gilneas should come back:
-It's very integral to the Worgen's identity, everything that characterized the race was housed -In Gilneas from their architecture to their distinct pride in their own kingdom.
It would make a fine military base with which the Alliance can utilize in order to plan and strategize against their opponents.
-It's very distinct and unique, it was one of the most arrogant kingdoms in its time and quite possibly the most advanced in technology due to Archibald's dream and the hard work of its own citizens. (As well as being the first to learn of it from the Dwarves and Gnomes)
-It would possibly showcase an important victory that the Alliance would get to experience.
-Lastly, it is a kingdom that is still going strong. It's one of the 7 kingdoms that has not suffered from undeath, plague, the Burning Legion, and other such evils until the Cataclysm struck. This means that it is not without hope and could still very likely be able to be brought back in the hands of its rightful owners.

All in all, I feel that if we make our voices heard that we'd like to see Gilneas come back as an Alliance base then I think that not only would this give the Worgen more identity but it would also bring a nicely unique area that sets them apart from the other nations.
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85 Night Elf Rogue
4985
It would be nice. I for one support the idea, along with a goblin expedition back to Kezan.
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90 Orc Warrior
10290
Gilneas WAS an advanced kingdom technology wise.

These days both the Alliance and the Horde have better tech than Gilneas.
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
Gilneas WAS an advanced kingdom technology wise.

These days both the Alliance and the Horde have better tech than Gilneas.


That's mostly because both factions have gotten far more development it seems, which is another reason I think Gilneas should come back. It still remains a unique kingdom that has lots of character to it.
Edited by Grimtale on 9/17/2011 8:42 AM PDT
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
Gilneas is awesome. Worgen are awesome. Genn is super awesome.

I support this.


Agreed.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6285
*Deep breath*


yeeeeah... about that. We kind of plauge bombed it and built an undead city under it. Sorry, we thought undercity could use some undead neighbors.
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
*Deep breath*


yeeeeah... about that. We kind of plauge bombed it and built an undead city under it. Sorry, we thought undercity could use some undead neighbors.


There is no undead city under it though, and it's barely plague bombed as it is still really inhabitable. Even now Crowley and his troops are using it as a staging ground to plan more attacks.
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
7755
Yeah i really want the alliance to get Gilneas back... but.... you will have to wait for that >.<
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
Yeah i really want the alliance to get Gilneas back... but.... you will have to wait for that >.<


We are patient.

But seriously, I don't mind a really nice constructive thread that would support a return to Gilneas and some restoration of the Worgen identity.
Edited by Grimtale on 9/17/2011 11:19 AM PDT
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85 Draenei Paladin
8465
If the Gilneas plan fails, you can always bunk with us Draenei!~

Please friend, do not mind the mess. We are still, how do you say: cleaning mess up.. and rebuilding broken.. and recovering survivors..

*Goes back to ineffectively pick-axing the rock collapses in the Exodar*
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85 Undead Warrior
12275
Yes yes... oh, you're serious aren't you? Well then no. Now go away before we unleash the blight upon you wretched lot. Now which one of these was my house...

I have a very hard time seeing Blizzard giving the Alliance Gilneas again simply because of the area it borders.

Now if Blizzard decided to do this there is a lot to be considered. There are different formats to follow, ideas to go with, etc. Would you just fill it up like Bilgewater Harbor with a series of nameless people with the odd familiar name thrown in? Reintegrate the former NPC population of humans from The Howling Oak? Would the Oak just be left empty? What about the Stormwind dwelling Gilneans like Celestine? Include Worgen and human in happy cohabitation? Would consideration of other formats work... like Making it a daily hub for both factions? A new Wintergrasp/Tol Barad? There is a lot of potential for what to do with Gilneas. Maybe even too much potential. I honestly think that no matter what happens, (some) people will be disappointed.

The rest I'm posting is just questions and details that came to mind while writing the above. Lore concerns, gameplay concerns and the like...

When I say too much potential, I mean for example: Gilneas is restored to the humans and they are giddy to retake power in the region. However, when Greymane returns he sees Crowley sitting in his chair, as he's led the the people in Genn's absence and ran the area's defense. Memories of a not-so-long-ago rebellion kick in at the thought of Crowley having had such authority. Gilneas enters a state of political turmoil shortly after the people return. Royalists, rebels and ferals cannot be expected to get along for long even in the face of adversity. Interesting for story, but what would they do in-game? Make everyone happy or show tension. If they do one thing, they might anger part of the player base who want political intrigue/scandal and if they do the other, they make a similar problem but for other reasons.

Or for gameplay: What stops the Battle for Gilneas 2.0 from being identical to the first one aside from the lack of Liam? It would be a bit more difficult to set that up in a manner that pleases the players and has originality. Or do you just come back to see all is good and the battle has been won. Do the Alliance get an epic quest chain that leads to resealing the Greymane Wall? What would the Horde get in return? Anything? Gilneas is largely intact... Kezan isn't nearly in shape like that. It's a mangled ruin covered in ash and molten rock.

If the Gilneans and Bilgewater Cartel had their homes, what keeps them in their respective factions? Genn only returned to the Alliance because Gilneas was lost and has always been more isolationist. Has he changed in his elder years? And why would Gallywix even WANT to go back considering Azshara was always his dream to rule?

TL;DR: Who would cross the Bridge to Gilneas must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see.
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
09/17/2011 12:13 PMPosted by Dithavus
I have a very hard time seeing Blizzard giving the Alliance Gilneas again simply because of the area it borders.


I don't think there's a problem with it. If anything it gives the Alliance a faster way to get to the minigame in Hillsbrad as well.

09/17/2011 12:13 PMPosted by Dithavus
Would you just fill it up like Bilgewater Harbor with a series of nameless people with the odd familiar name thrown in?


Depends on how nameless they would be exactly. For instance I don't consider a character like, say, Tobias Mistmantle to be nameless. Nor do I consider other important characters that played a very integral part in defending Gilneas during the Worgen incursion and then later the Forsaken invasion to be nameless either. Much like how the goblins got to meet up with all their old companions that helped them through Kezan to Lost Isle and now you meet them in Orgrimmar and Azshara, by comparison the Worgen only meet a fraction of that many characters and I feel that's wasteful because they had so much... well, character to them.

Reintegrate the former NPC population of humans from The Howling Oak? Would the Oak just be left empty?


In my mindset, the Howling Oak strikes me as a temporary refugee district. In all honesty this has been said before, but the Howling Oak is simply unrepresentative of the identity of the Gilneans and if anything I still have that feeling that it's just a placeholder area until something better comes along for the Worgen. If it does become empty then I think that's fine, but I wouldn't mind that it still housed certain feral worgen that still needed to go through with the ritual in case they never could in Gilneas.

What about the Stormwind dwelling Gilneans like Celestine?


Celestine is too busy in Hyjal.

Include Worgen and human in happy cohabitation?


Sure, why not.

Would consideration of other formats work... like Making it a daily hub for both factions? A new Wintergrasp/Tol Barad?


I don't know about both factions, perhaps I would be okay with it if the Alliance had a sizeable portion of Gilneas whereas the Horde were more situated in the outskirts planning assaults. As for the Wintergrasp/Tol Barad idea, I am completely unsupportive of anything of the sort simply because both Wintergrasp and Tol Barad have been known to fail by design concept.

When I say too much potential, I mean for example: Gilneas is restored to the humans and they are giddy to retake power in the region. However, when Greymane returns he sees Crowley sitting in his chair, as he's led the the people in Genn's absence and ran the area's defense. Memories of a not-so-long-ago rebellion kick in at the thought of Crowley having had such authority. Gilneas enters a state of political turmoil shortly after the people return. Royalists, rebels and ferals cannot be expected to get along for long even in the face of adversity. Interesting for story, but what would they do in-game? Make everyone happy or show tension. If they do one thing, they might anger part of the player base who want political intrigue/scandal and if they do the other, they make a similar problem but for other reasons.


This is indeed and interesting thought and I commend you for bringing this up. I personally feel that some tension would moreso arise from priorities in what the Alliance needs, I would like to personally see Genn opt to gain Gilneas back and wager that it would be a brilliant move to do so. Some disagreements could be made as the Alliance is pressured in many different strategic points, which would fire Genn up to support it even stronger. Between Darius and Genn, they have mended their broken bridges so I don't see too much conflict arising from them which I think I'm pretty fine with because these have to work together. If it's portrayed as anything like it was in the Gilneas starting area though, I would like that too.

What stops the Battle for Gilneas 2.0 from being identical to the first one aside from the lack of Liam?


Well surely there's lots of different ideas that we could culminate for this. Perhaps the Gilneans have more than just guns, steel, claws, and teeth to fight back against the Forsaken? Perhaps they found a much more rallying leader to help them against Sylvanas and her ilk? Perhaps... quite frankly, they're simply fed up with losing the kingdom they once loved and now are fighting back much harder with increased strength and furor. Who really knows... I personally think something different could be made.

Do the Alliance get an epic quest chain that leads to resealing the Greymane Wall?


I would hope so.

What would the Horde get in return?


I believe they would also get an epic quest chain in helping the Goblins gain Kezan back. Why do I think Kezan isn't completely lost? Well I think Thrall would have say in its restoration given that the Goblins saved him from capture and I'm sure the jolly green guy wouldn't have a problem in repaying them by restoring their home.

You must also remember that while Goblins have lost a lot, it hasn't harmed their identity quite nearly as badly as the Worgen. They still have a massive presence and a very vibrant questing experience due to many zones having Goblin settlements that they can easily identify with given Kezan's close relations with other cartels.

Genn only returned to the Alliance because Gilneas was lost and has always been more isolationist. Has he changed in his elder years?


He very much has, if you've read Wolfheart he and Varian are pretty much broski's now and Genn has learned much from his past mistakes after the death of his son. He is pretty much a humbled man whom I believe will stick around with the Alliance given that they've helped him even when they've seen the worst of him.

And why would Gallywix even WANT to go back considering Azshara was always his dream to rule?


For this I am unsure, as I believe that Gallywix is not in a very good position of power given his traitorous ways and being at the mercy of the Goblin players. Perhaps if Thrall or even Garrosh wills it, he will listen and also wish for Kezan to return.

TL;DR: Who would cross the Bridge to Gilneas must answer me these questions three, ere the other side he see.


Questions answered, hope I remained nicely consistent and well thought out for you good chum.

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90 Night Elf Death Knight
11720
Here are some of the issues:

1) It's location. Right next to Silverpine and Hillsbrad which are both low level Horde leveling zones. Keep in mind that the Alliance was removed from there because of the Alliance having more leveling zones then Horde, which Blizzard admits the reason behind the decision. Not to mention Undercity is up the road from Greymane Wall.

2) It's completely out of the way of the leveling path for Alliance. Blizzard wants the worgen to be on Kalimdor because of their new connection with the night elves and the molding of Gilnean worgen into night elves. Early in Cata, with the worgen district in SW, it would appear that they wanted the worgen to level alongside the humans which takes them south, not north. The problem here is that the worgen don't really have a story outside of Kalimdor. There aren't enough Alliance worgen in EK to fill a small house. The worgen can't level in Hillsbrad and Blizzard hasn't decided on exactly what the worgen story is outside their starting zone. Are they trying to retake Gilneas? Do they just want to focus on being night elves? What's the point of having your faction leader tell you that he wants to take Gilneas back, when the Alliance has Gilneas and the player has no story or lore connection to that story until they queue for the AB clone?

3) Here where it gets fun. The worgen are, according to Lionheart, are more focused on being wild animals and playing in the woods then having much, if anything to do with the Alliance or retaking Gilneas. So while the humans would like to take their cities back, the worgen, based upon Lionheart, would be spending a majority of their time hiding in the woods and playing night elves. So what's the point of having a zone for the worgen when the cities are empty of worgen?

4) Gilneas is a BG called "Battle FOR Gilneas" while Blizzard did a crappy job of telling the Alliance that they actually hold Gilneas and are on the defense while the Horde is on the offense and trying to retake what they lost. The BGs story is of who controls Gilneas. If the battleground stays, and it will unless Blizzard changes it's minds, it would be really hard to justify why we are fighting over Gilneas when one side already controls it. Talk about a story/lore snafu.

5) Industrial Gilneas is dead. As far as the game thinks, the worgen war, Northgate Rebellion and Greymane himself destroyed that dream. The future of Gilneas is nature just like the night elves. As much as I wish it wasn't so, but Blizzard doesn't seem to want to do anything with that, just like the fact that Gilneas was the ONLY human kingdom with druids ends up being a throwaway line in the starting zone.

The worgen, like the draenei, have been the ugly stepchildren of this expansion. I'd prefer that Blizzard actually fix the worgen, don't turn them into a faction of furry night elves, we already have one faction of night elves we don't need another, then they can justify on the status of Gilneas. If the goblins can get their home back, as stated by Metzen, then they would need to figure out the worgen's role and just what taking back Gilneas as a true Alliance zone do for the game.
Edited by Dawnsrequiem on 9/17/2011 1:55 PM PDT
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
I would say if we vied for Worgen to gain more presence, we should detail why they're such a good race instead of constantly saying they suck. To me that's simply not productive, they're a good race imo and I think they have loads of potential for what they've been added for in this expansion, the problem is simply that I don't think there hasn't been enough constructiveness in suggestions on just how to make them feel like a genuine race.

List of things that make Worgen a good race:
1. They're a savage monster race based on classic Victorian horror myths as well as being a race that sets itself apart from the other faction races.
2. They can appeal to both factions as they have a nice duality of both civility and ferocity. They are a race of tortured humans who are fighting every day to control the beast within them.
3. They have the potential to spice up the Alliance by showing off their difference of viewpoints as well as their unique cultural identity that could be restored if we see a return to their kingdom.
4. They actually have a history in the game, the Gilneans being around back in Warcraft 2 as well as possible rumors of the Worgen curse being around sometime afterwards. While they're not an entirely iconic Warcraft race, they are at least a race that has a semblance of history to it.

All in all I think the Worgen have possibly one of the greatest potentials of races to offer something interesting to the game's story, and I just think one of the least productive things is to say "Well I just think they suck so I give up" that to me is not the catalyst for constructive debate.
Edited by Grimtale on 9/17/2011 2:10 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
15920
I feel the Worgen would be dealt a great disservice if they where simply handed Gilneas back. Their desperation is a defining feature, I say let them languish in a loreless void for four or five years. Then, once they're stuck in a time-void quagmire with no influence what-so-ever on current lore and events, we'll talk

That's right, I'm a damaged and bitter draenei. Suffer with me!
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
I feel the Worgen would be dealt a great disservice if they where simply handed Gilneas back. Their desperation is a defining feature, I say let them languish in a loreless void for four or five years. Then, once they're stuck in a time-void quagmire with no influence what-so-ever on current lore and events, we'll talk

That's right, I'm a damaged and bitter draenei. Suffer with me!


No? Not sure why you would wish that. It's a fun story development that all the Alliance races can experience and enjoy, so why is that so bad?

Draenei have their own problems for why they aren't developing, but that's not what I want to discuss in this thread.
Edited by Grimtale on 9/17/2011 2:20 PM PDT
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76 Undead Death Knight
2625
I think it works perfectly to have to capital cities near each other, they would balance each other out.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
11720
Blizzard doesn't think that there is a problem with the worgen.

So despite thread after thread, and if you do a search for worgen in the forums, you will come up with a ton of threads that all boil down to the same thing.

"Worgen need to be fixed and here are solutions on how to fix them."

And I've given paragraphs to how Blizzard can fix them.

The problem is that Blizzard doesn't see how the worgen are currently potrayed in game.

For whatever reason, either because of the rush job that was cata, or Metzen decided to change the worgen's focus, or whatever else you can think of, Blizzard transformed the in game worgen from "Wolverine-type savages" to "furry night elves". While outside the game we can see glimpses of that original idea, in game, it's gone because having a race like that in the "we are happy together Alliance" doesn't work.

Look at the castration of the night elves in game if you want further proof.

The solution is a pretty simple one: Get a CDev writer that actually can write the Alliance as the Alliance, and not as a prettier-version of the Horde, since they can write Horde so much better than the Alliance since they "get" the Horde.

But you want some paragraphs of how to fix the worgen and Gilneas? I can give paragraphs....
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