In regards to 4.3 Tier and Restrictions

100 Night Elf Hunter
18345
09/19/2011 04:19 PMPosted by Airtight
Bring back ToC25 trophy-style tokens for 10 mans, problem solved forever. Get on it.

Though I would not be against removing the class restriction on tokens, I don't like the "one for all" concept of ToC. I think a gloves token should be different from a shoulders token. I would be happy if there was no class requirement on them, but people shouldn't be able to complete a full tier set just by killing the first boss in the instance.
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
4695
Just curious, but where was it stated that tier can't be purchased?
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
09/19/2011 05:28 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Given this, I'd assume the heroic tokens won't require you to have a lower-level version of the item to trade in, and will just be purchased with the token itself and nothing else, correct?


Holy schnikeys, another Crusader :o

And she's a Gnome to boot.


Have to believe Strawberry would be right on this one. It wouldn't make any sense to force players to farm the reg versions before upgrading to Heroic, the same reason why Staghelm and Rag don't require the reg piece to upgrade.

If every boss piece was a drop, then it would have to use the Domo/Rag/Cho/Nef model. The only reason the other tokens require the base peice is because the base piece can be purchased with VP.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
13895
09/19/2011 04:13 PMPosted by Zarhym
meaning players will still need to roll on multi-class set tokens


I don't mind rolling against people; what I mind is the fact that we have 3rd offspec heroic tiered Protector and Vanquisher classes while Conqueror classes are still waiting for their main spec.

/sigh Another tier without Conq tokens ftw.
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85 Troll Druid
1130
09/19/2011 04:13 PMPosted by Zarhym
Set pieces from all three difficulty levels can still be mixed and matched for the 2- and 4-piece bonuses.


This will basically force raiders to farm thru the LFD raid as well every week for quite a while, since the 2pc and 4pc bonuses will certainly outweigh the ilvl loss on the piece. This could actually be a good thing of course, increasing the number of competent players per random raid.
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100 Orc Hunter
15400
09/19/2011 05:22 PMPosted by Bomdanil
What is wrong with the current system and why the change to the new system?


The issue stems from the fact that no one able to raid currently would be using the LFR system if it went in with no incentives for them to run it. Assuming tier stayed on vendors, rather than bloating loot tables, even 10m guilds would swallow the slower progression rate just to avoid the headache that LFR is going to be for those that the system is designed for.


Are you saying they are changing the system because they want people who currently are not in a 10/25 man raiding guild to use the LFR tool to get tier pieces rather than run their 7 dungeons per week to get the VP to buy the tier pieces?


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94 Gnome Warlock
1970
09/19/2011 05:33 PMPosted by Bullettime
Have to believe Strawberry would be right on this one.


I was more proclaiming my surprise that there's another SC player on the forums, and as a Gnome no less.

A Gnome with awesome eyewear.
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100 Orc Hunter
15400
09/19/2011 05:24 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Why run something with strangers when you can clear much faster with guild?


Most raids are run in the 10m format. The LFR is made for 25's and 25's only, which is why I said that the issues aren't going to be felt by 25's to the degree that they are by 10's. 25's can run the LFR as a guild run and just mass clear it repeatedly and be done with it. No 10m groups will have that luxury.


If they share separate lockouts, that is going to be awesome in some respects.
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94 Gnome Warlock
1970
09/19/2011 05:41 PMPosted by Rexzoolza
Are you saying they are changing the system because they want people who currently are not in a 10/25 man raiding guild to use the LFR tool to get tier pieces rather than run their 7 dungeons per week to get the VP to buy the tier pieces?


No. I'm saying they changed it because they need raiders carrying people in LFR more than they need them in LFD carrying people running the new 5 man dungeons.
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100 Blood Elf Warrior
15085
The more I think about this the more I hate this. This means that's 3 more pieces we're going to have to pray to the RNG Gods for. Even if 10 mans get 2 tokens this is might slow down their gear rate to less then what it is now and it's pretty BS in 10 mans already. These new tokens have to be universal. Nobody wants to spend VP on non tier Slot pieces.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
09/19/2011 05:43 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Have to believe Strawberry would be right on this one.


I was more proclaiming my surprise that there's another SC player on the forums, and as a Gnome no less.

A Gnome with awesome eyewear.


Oh I just quoted you instead of them since you had the information quoted to keep from scrolling up the page :)
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85 Night Elf Warrior
13150
Ultimately, we recognize that making these set pieces available only as raid drops leaves players much more subject to RNG drop rates/loot rolls, but we have a couple of plans to try and alleviate the sense of burden that stems from the randomness of token drops.

The way tier 13 pieces will be obtained in the 4.3 raid won't be unlike raids past, meaning players will still need to roll on multi-class set tokens. That said, we'll be tweaking the tier 13 10-player drop rates a little bit (for the better) relative to the 25-player version, given that these tier pieces can't be purchased from vendors for Valor Points.



I don't understand your designers hang up with this issue is. Why do you insist on putting class restrictions on tier tokens? My guild has killed domo 11 times, and we have gotten ONE Protector token and we gave it to our shaman. So I'm still running around with goofy last tier shoulders while we have druids that have tier shoulders for ALL THREE SPECS. Great design, thumbs up! I can't wait for this next tier so we can get Vanquisher tokens every night. And your approach is to make more desirable offset gear? Why is that mutually exclusive to removing class restrictions on tokens?
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100 Night Elf Warrior
8025
So am I to understand that tier 11 and 12 won't be available for JP?
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12895

And how many times have you killed H Shannox?


3 Times. and Also last week 2 heroic tier legs dropped for this.

So after 3 kills, with the same token dropping each time and twice on one kill, you're only now about to start throwing them away. (I suspect you'll find some use for them at least for a little while longer given that the Conqueror token applies to six different tier sets, so even if you only have one of each class that's still 6 tokens you can use.)

There are 10m comps that throw away one of the three tokens from the first time it drops, and even more that start discarding one on the second appearance. Protector in particular.
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85 Troll Druid
0
Ultimately, we recognize that making these set pieces available only as raid drops leaves players much more subject to RNG drop rates/loot rolls, but we have a couple of plans to try and alleviate the sense of burden that stems from the randomness of token drops.

The way tier 13 pieces will be obtained in the 4.3 raid won't be unlike raids past, meaning players will still need to roll on multi-class set tokens. That said, we'll be tweaking the tier 13 10-player drop rates a little bit (for the better) relative to the 25-player version, given that these tier pieces can't be purchased from vendors for Valor Points.

In addition, due to tier pieces not being offered for Valor Points, another thing you'll see in patch 4.3 is a much wider array of desirable non-set loot (covering more slots than prior patches) available from the vendors, for those players who are unlucky with specific token drops, or who aren't interested in raiding -- although, once you get more details about the Raid Finder, we hope you'll find interest in having a go.

I felt this warranted its own response in a separate thread, but for those who missed it, here's my response to the original thread about tier 13 pieces being raid drops only:

<a href="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3196022133?page=23#456">http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3196022133?page=23#456</a>

Keep in mind we do intend to allow tier 13 set pieces to drop for those using the upcoming Raid Finder. Similar to the difference between normal and Heroic versions of tier sets, the Raid Finder set will have a lower item level than the normal and Heroic counterparts.

Set pieces from all three difficulty levels can still be mixed and matched for the 2- and 4-piece bonuses.


That will probably work unless of course you have a 4 pc bonus that adds something in the neighborhood of oh say, 6k dps to a spec a la Elemental Shaman.

Also, I'm all for raiding for my gear but this is going to create issues where some people have their 4 pc assembled before others even have their 2 pc(and taking longer than they would have taken if the pieces were still bought with VP) despite putting just as much effort into the accumulation of those tokens as the guy who got lucky with RNG(in our guild that will likely be our two paladins since we don't raid with either Priests or Warlocks, yay them!).
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12895
09/19/2011 05:44 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Are you saying they are changing the system because they want people who currently are not in a 10/25 man raiding guild to use the LFR tool to get tier pieces rather than run their 7 dungeons per week to get the VP to buy the tier pieces?


No. I'm saying they changed it because they need raiders carrying people in LFR more than they need them in LFD carrying people running the new 5 man dungeons.

Cynical, but probably accurate, lol.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315



3 Times. and Also last week 2 heroic tier legs dropped for this.

So after 3 kills, with the same token dropping each time and twice on one kill, you're only now about to start throwing them away. (I suspect you'll find some use for them at least for a little while longer given that the Conqueror token applies to six different tier sets, so even if you only have one of each class that's still 6 tokens you can use.)

There are 10m comps that throw away one of the three tokens from the first time it drops, and even more that start discarding one on the second appearance. Protector in particular.


We've had 6 Pal/Priest/Lock leg tokens drop out of 8 kills and only 1 Paladin and 1 Priest in the raid.
Edited by Bullettime on 9/19/2011 6:00 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
11045
09/19/2011 04:13 PMPosted by Zarhym
The way tier 13 pieces will be obtained in the 4.3 raid won't be unlike raids past, meaning players will still need to roll on multi-class set tokens.


Please tell me this means you'll have tokens for any piece of tier versus locking us into shoulder/helm/chest etc.

ICC's tier tokens were amazing in that as long as you could down a wing boss, you could get any piece of tier you wanted.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12895

So after 3 kills, with the same token dropping each time and twice on one kill, you're only now about to start throwing them away. (I suspect you'll find some use for them at least for a little while longer given that the Conqueror token applies to six different tier sets, so even if you only have one of each class that's still 6 tokens you can use.)

There are 10m comps that throw away one of the three tokens from the first time it drops, and even more that start discarding one on the second appearance. Protector in particular.


We've had 6 Pal/Priest/Lock leg tokens drop out of 8 kills and only 1 Paladin and 1 Priest in the raid.

(1) I hate you. Please trade RNGs with us.
(2) See? This is what happens in 10m raids. Perfectly reasonable comp getting screwed. A similarly constituted 25m would have 5 paladins/priests/warlocks, so when the same token drops 6 times in 8 kills, that just means one person's getting offspec gear. That's about the worst-case scenario in a 25. In a 10, by the sixth time it drops, you've already bought your paladin and priest that tier piece in all five sets, and the only thing you can do is vendor the sixth.
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