In regards to 4.3 Tier and Restrictions

100 Human Priest
19640
09/19/2011 05:37 PMPosted by Fakeout
Set pieces from all three difficulty levels can still be mixed and matched for the 2- and 4-piece bonuses.


This will basically force raiders to farm thru the LFD raid as well every week for quite a while, since the 2pc and 4pc bonuses will certainly outweigh the ilvl loss on the piece. This could actually be a good thing of course, increasing the number of competent players per random raid.


I'd rather keep the int/spirit from my 391 tier instead of wanting to rip my hair out from 1. having to kill the same boss more than once a week (lockout was only decent Cata change) and 2. having to deal with moron pugs.

I wonder what the kick rules for LFR will be. Probably just as retarded as the LFD ones.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15810
09/19/2011 04:19 PMPosted by Airtight
Bring back ToC25 trophy-style tokens for 10 mans, problem solved forever. Get on it.


This makes way too much sense. Blizzard got it right ONCE and went back to screwing the pooch. Someday they will get over their infatuation with RNG.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13780
That said, we'll be tweaking the tier 13 10-player drop rates a little bit (for the better) relative to the 25-player version, given that these tier pieces can't be purchased from vendors for Valor Points.


Another buff to 10-man raiding? Why would anyone raid in 25-man groups again?
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66 Gnome Rogue
0
Zarhym,

If I may ask, what is the point of class restriction on tokens? Removing the class restrictions would be the best move forward because it addresses the problems of people feeling forced to run LFR and reg raids.


This.


Why do you have this in the first place? It does not make any sense. Why not just a chest, gloves, legs, shoulder, and helm token?

Not only is it painful unneeded rng but it punishes people for being a popular class.

My guild has a pally healer, me as a tank, and 1 regular ret. We do not have enough people to fill a full 10man week after week so we pug and its not unusual to have 5 pallies in our raid.

We dont do this because we dont care about class balance....its because its all we can get. Why not just make the piece slot specific and remove the class restrictions?
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90 Dwarf Hunter
16315
That said, we'll be tweaking the tier 13 10-player drop rates a little bit (for the better) relative to the 25-player version, given that these tier pieces can't be purchased from vendors for Valor Points.


Another buff to 10-man raiding? Why would anyone raid in 25-man groups again?


Because you still gear up on the off slots exponentially faster and aren't as large a victim to BS loot RNG.
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85 Orc Shaman
6310
09/19/2011 07:13 PMPosted by Layuth
Bring back ToC25 trophy-style tokens for 10 mans, problem solved forever. Get on it.


This makes way too much sense. Blizzard got it right ONCE and went back to screwing the pooch. Someday they will get over their infatuation with RNG.



They got it right twice: T9 and T10. Someday they'll get over their infatuation with raiding as the only upgrade path for PvE.
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90 Human Hunter
8725
I'm just worried about how the loot distribution rules will be set. I know very well Blizzard has taken notice of the constant "dps stole my tank gear. Tank stole my dps gear." threads out there. Do they honestly expect tossing 25 people into the LFR system with the current system will work? You're going to see the forums flooded with people upset because the tank took his tier piece for his main spec, a two hand weapon for his off spec, another token for the spec he might drop his off spec for in the future.

It's only going to get nuts if they don't have a revamped idea for how this system should work.
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- Technical Support
100 Human Warrior
19545
09/19/2011 04:19 PMPosted by Airtight
Bring back ToC25 trophy-style tokens for 10 mans, problem solved forever. Get on it.


this

i do a 10 and a 25 man every week. and we've had protector tokens off ra, 6 weeks straight, we have ONE person in raid that can use that token.

this isn't a drop rate problem this is a bad loot system problem. tokens should not be class specific, that is the main problemw ith 10 man, not drop rates. you could drop 3 tokens on 10 man, and if they are wrong classes they are still useless. it's THIS RNG that makes loot hardre to get on 10 man vs 25. not cause of the quanity but cuase of the amount of loot that goes to waste, where on 25 man the items at least typically have SOMEONE who will use it, at least until 25s get to saturated point, then yeah they too will have woes of wasted tokens while others need, but it's not to the extent of 10 man.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
5595
All gear should be available through a point system,the more you do raiding,heroics,bgs,pvp the faster you get your items,the less you do the slower you get them.Your satisfaction should come from your own accomplishments and not from other customers being excluded from items because they have to,or just prefer to play differently than raiders.
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90 Human Paladin
18030
I suspect something we will see change will be the removal of requiring Normal Chest, Pants, Gloves to get the Heroic version - much like how Heroic Helm and Shoulders currently work.

This in addition to drop rate tweaking (perhaps).
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55 Orc Warrior
13775
Ultimately, we recognize that making these set pieces available only as raid drops leaves players much more subject to RNG drop rates/loot rolls, but we have a couple of plans to try and alleviate the sense of burden that stems from the randomness of token drops.

The way tier 13 pieces will be obtained in the 4.3 raid won't be unlike raids past, meaning players will still need to roll on multi-class set tokens. That said, we'll be tweaking the tier 13 10-player drop rates a little bit (for the better) relative to the 25-player version, given that these tier pieces can't be purchased from vendors for Valor Points.

In addition, due to tier pieces not being offered for Valor Points, another thing you'll see in patch 4.3 is a much wider array of desirable non-set loot (covering more slots than prior patches) available from the vendors, for those players who are unlucky with specific token drops, or who aren't interested in raiding -- although, once you get more details about the Raid Finder, we hope you'll find interest in having a go.

I felt this warranted its own response in a separate thread, but for those who missed it, here's my response to the original thread about tier 13 pieces being raid drops only:

<a href="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3196022133?page=23#456">http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3196022133?page=23#456</a>

Keep in mind we do intend to allow tier 13 set pieces to drop for those using the upcoming Raid Finder. Similar to the difference between normal and Heroic versions of tier sets, the Raid Finder set will have a lower item level than the normal and Heroic counterparts.

Set pieces from all three difficulty levels can still be mixed and matched for the 2- and 4-piece bonuses.

Any chance we can get some details as to why the tokens need to have class restrictions on them and why they are the way they are? just trying to understand the logic. im sure there is a good reason ive yet to see it is all and im curious.
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100 Undead Priest
14220
[quote]
Any chance we can get some details as to why the tokens need to have class restrictions on them and why they are the way they are? just trying to understand the logic. im sure there is a good reason ive yet to see it is all and im curious.


I too would like to know why they have this class based restriction on tokens.

Say you have an uber group and you kill the entire raid in week 1, and the last boss drops the helm still. That is still 10 weeks for the BEST guild in the game to gear up and get helms. For the rest of us normal people, we're usually 6-9 weeks before we get to the last boss, and then another 10 weeks to get our helms. That is IF we can use the token each week and do not get screwed by RNG.

So for our type of raid group, that is 16-19 weeks, nearly 5 MONTHS of killing the same place, over and over, to get geared up. (I don't need to hear from trolls that we suck, so find some other place to make yourself feel better)

So 19 weeks. Isn't that long enough? Why put class restrictions to make it take a fun-raiding group even longer to gear up?

Why does blizzard have to make gating on gear so un-fun? The encounters are already fun and challenging for most players (see incoming nerfs this week). Why make it even harder for us?
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13780



Another buff to 10-man raiding? Why would anyone raid in 25-man groups again?


Because you still gear up on the off slots exponentially faster and aren't as large a victim to BS loot RNG.


I agree, but it seems more and more that Blizzard is making a concerted effort to drive players into 10-man raiding, but seem to try to be sneaky about it. My question is, if that is their gameplan, why not come out and say it?
Edited by Aranyszin on 9/19/2011 10:05 PM PDT
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5 Human Warlock
0
Keep in mind we do intend to allow tier 13 set pieces to drop for those using the upcoming Raid Finder. Similar to the difference between normal and Heroic versions of tier sets, the Raid Finder set will have a lower item level than the normal and Heroic counterparts.

Set pieces from all three difficulty levels can still be mixed and matched for the 2- and 4-piece bonuses.


Hopefully you guys can keep LFR from causing any lock whatsoever. My 10 man is 50% Vanquisher and even with the adjusted drop rates for Vanq, we have a heck of a time gearing up. If LFR causes no lock then we can at least get our set bonuses without having to wait months for the requisite drops.
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85 Tauren Warrior
11105
Ultimately, we recognize that making these set pieces available only as raid drops leaves players much more subject to RNG drop rates/loot rolls, but we have a couple of plans to try and alleviate the sense of burden that stems from the randomness of token drops.

The way tier 13 pieces will be obtained in the 4.3 raid won't be unlike raids past, meaning players will still need to roll on multi-class set tokens. That said, we'll be tweaking the tier 13 10-player drop rates a little bit (for the better) relative to the 25-player version, given that these tier pieces can't be purchased from vendors for Valor Points.

In addition, due to tier pieces not being offered for Valor Points, another thing you'll see in patch 4.3 is a much wider array of desirable non-set loot (covering more slots than prior patches) available from the vendors, for those players who are unlucky with specific token drops, or who aren't interested in raiding -- although, once you get more details about the Raid Finder, we hope you'll find interest in having a go.

I felt this warranted its own response in a separate thread, but for those who missed it, here's my response to the original thread about tier 13 pieces being raid drops only:

<a href="http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3196022133?page=23#456">http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3196022133?page=23#456</a>

Keep in mind we do intend to allow tier 13 set pieces to drop for those using the upcoming Raid Finder. Similar to the difference between normal and Heroic versions of tier sets, the Raid Finder set will have a lower item level than the normal and Heroic counterparts.

Set pieces from all three difficulty levels can still be mixed and matched for the 2- and 4-piece bonuses.


Z,

I understand the rational for this change, the issue is that many have seen this expansion as the "raider entitlement" expansion. It may not look like it to some, but in the attempt to make everyone happy, no one is, as it usual when these things are tried....

Here is what has happened thus far from a non-raider point of view:

1) Removal of epics from end boss heroic 5 mans.
2) Tier 2 heroics yield gear worse than the first raiding tier of the expansion. No replacement 5 mans are added until 4.3 (which will be almost 8 months later), and JP/VP/solo content rewards are far better than the tier 2 heroics a short 3 months after their introduction.
3) From what we know about 4.3, many non-raiders are feeling "forced" into a random raid finder that they won't enjoy, especially with the 25 man only setting.


Now from a raider's point of view on this:

1) By the end of Cata, there will be a little over 30 bosses if you include BH. Making this the lightest expac for raiding by far.
2) RNG issues in BC and the begining of Wrath were what drove the devs to the badge for tier system in the first place, there is a great fear that this heavily RNG based system will continue. In some cases hurting the progression of some guilds.
3) The lesser skilled raids aren't being allowed to use the easy mode in 10 man format for that "gear edge", as it's only available through the random system, AND 25 man only. Which is not perferable to many of us, as we raid 10 man by choice, not necessity. (This is taken from the info on the interviews we've seen)


I'm personally not really happy with a couple of other things concerning the patch. The gearing distribution looks right, from the assumptions that we're making, and the content looks pretty darn cool. But like many other things concerning Cata, there are implementation issues that are being done to try and please everyone. The tier issue is one of the core problem areas.


SUGGESTION: Leave the gloves and legs on the vendor for VP. This will allow guilds to at least get the two set piece bonus on raiders without being dependant on RNG. This is my main concern about this.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
4865
09/19/2011 04:50 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
By doing the LFR and Normal raids you will gear faster and complete Tier sets more quickly, the exact same thing 25 man raiders used 10's for in Wrath.


The wrath model worked.

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85 Tauren Paladin
6345
09/19/2011 04:47 PMPosted by Zurieal
Why isn't there just one token that everyone uses?


Because Blizz would rather have players like myself wearing these same lvl 359 trash drop shoulders for 10 months.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
4975
09/19/2011 11:08 PMPosted by Taxem
Why isn't there just one token that everyone uses?


Because Blizz would rather have players like myself wearing these same lvl 359 trash drop shoulders for 10 months.
It keeps you coming back to finish them.

This is also why I don't raid, though. I hated the RNG in Aion and I don't approve of WoW going back to that kind of system.
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90 Gnome Warlock
1785
09/19/2011 10:04 PMPosted by Aranyszin
I agree, but it seems more and more that Blizzard is making a concerted effort to drive players into 10-man raiding, but seem to try to be sneaky about it. My question is, if that is their gameplan, why not come out and say it?


The staff creation frame for 10m was stupidly slow. By the time the best of the bet of 10m guilds, with perfect RNG luck (they have a chance to get nothing from bosses, 25's don't have that issue), was only starting the third part of the chain at the time that most moderately progressed 25's had 2. If they kept the system as they planned it then 10s would have 1 staff half way through T13 where as 25's would have 5-7 of them made, per raid group.

Now it's just a 4:1 difference by the time T13 gets released, with the original 2.5:1 balance coming out sometime in April assuming folks still keep farming Firelands for their legendary.
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