Heirlooms

15 Tauren Paladin
11145
Hello? Is this thing on?

Testing. Testing. Check one.


I feel for ya man... really I do.
85 Night Elf Druid
5650
10/05/2011 12:49 PMPosted by Kirigi
All this mumbo jumbo about technical difficulties and "it's too hard to program" really just sound like background noise while the glaring reality is "We are making millions of dollars from people transferring toons across servers with NO overhead costs." Blizzard is not in the habit of taking their hands out of our pockets once they're very firmly grubbing our money out of them.


There's a lot to be said about capitalism. I for one, have worked as an employee within the retail industry for many years (more than I would like to admit). When I look at other big names in the gaming industry, I can't help but appreciate the hard work and dedication Blizzard puts forth to make their games better. Instead of just coming out with a sequel or re hash of a game every 6 months, they take a lot of time to assess everything that could have done better, and then patch the existing title (for free, of course), all in the name of providing a quality gaming service for a damn low cost.

My internet connection alone costs more than I pay for both my wow accounts each month. I can't go out to a movie with my GF or son for what I pay for wow each month. You want to talk about a company that literally takes the very lint from your pockets? Blizzard isn't it.

Sorry, but these kinds of posts always irk me. I don't think anyone is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to play this game. The costs of service and game content have stayed the same for the last 7 years, in an industry where game prices have done nothing but go up.
wow I was just looking for a post about this, or going to create one.

There must be something blizzard can do..

I personally have my account with 10 level 85 toons on one server... and I did end up paying to transfer heirlooms over.... before I had the head/back heirlooms...

and I'm not transferring again just to bring over some items. I dont understand why they say battle.net account bound when they're not. I spent 2 hours online trying to figure out how to send them cross server since I assumed this new phraseology meant they could now go cross realm some how.

Please put on them "server bound" or something.


10/05/2011 12:55 PMPosted by Arabeth
Fair enough that people keep harping on the technical issue they don't understand, but is Blizzard listening to the OP's idea since it's giving people effectively the same benefit as they get now?


Read the blue post, nincompoops.
10/05/2011 12:59 PMPosted by Mvura
Read the blue post, nincompoops.

???

Read my earlier post and then let me know if you still follow what I was saying.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11180
All BoAs should have the ability to be mailed cross realm, easy solution:

IF $BoA = 1 THEN $AbilityToMailCrossRealm = 1
IF $AbilityToMailCrossRealm = 1 THEN GOTO 'line that equals the ability mail !@#$'
IF $AbilityToMailCrossRealm = 0 THEN PRINT "Try try again, noob."

Solved.
90 Night Elf Druid
7335
10/05/2011 12:49 PMPosted by Tyrazsun
The game is made up of band-aids. ;(
I won't disagree with that, but it doesn't mean Blizzard should continue down the path of band-aid solutions. As a programmer, seeing something like that tells me Blizzard doesn't care about the technical quality of the products they make. That means someone at Blizzard knowingly decided to make band-aid solutions. I certainly wouldn't want to work in a place like that.

Thankfully, that's not the case anymore. I believe in the last Blizzcast (from a hundred years ago), Ghostcrawler used the example of the mount system, which was patched with bandaids for years to fit in flying mounts, rare mounts, epic mounts, and duration-based mounts like the broom. He then went on to say that they fixed that up from band-aids to a full-featured, easier-to-use (for programmers and other developers) system.

10/05/2011 12:49 PMPosted by Tyrazsun
I'm not at all trying to say that it's easy, or anything. I just want to hear the reasoning on why they won't try other aspects. The only thing we've gotten a solid answer is the crossrealm communication one. There are other options. If they're not viable, i'd love to know why. But it should be for a good reason, not "this is our only idea".
Blizzard's obligation isn't to keep it's customers up to date on experimental features. You have to understand that if Blizzard said, "Oh, we're trying this new feature" then everyone will take it as a promise. If Blizzard doesn't deliver on promises, they look bad, e.g.: the dance studio, moose mount, etc. The moose mount is a really good example because it wasn't even a promise, it was joke. Yet people purposely construed it as a promise and some people to this day won't shut the heck up about it.

Blizzard is pretty careful about what it "promises" and what it holds back.

What you're talking about specifically is called various things in the industry, but essentially it's exploratory research and development. It basically gives a team carte blanche to try different things while assuming the risk of failure is high but the fallout from failure is minimal.

It's completely possible there are multiple quirks stopping implementation. But pretending there's only one way to skin a cat is disengenous(sp?), or willfully ignorant.

I purposely tried to piggyback existing systems for that reason, but without actually working there, i obviously can't give details. Zman can.
Yes, and piggybacking existing systems is what band-aid solutions are. And that's bad. If you have the opportunity to build a complete and elegant solution for something and it's done well and documented well, then that solution is preferable over the band-aid solution even if it costs more, even if it takes more time. Because it will pay for itself if it's well done.
Edited by Fanahlia on 10/5/2011 1:03 PM PDT
90 Human Warrior
7090
10/05/2011 11:50 AMPosted by Kevyne
The reason you might not accept the fact we call this a technical limitation seems to be because we fundamentally disagree about how the system should work.


And we know that it wasn't some "technical" reason it couldn't be done, too. If other MMOs can communicate and mail across different games (SOE and their games, for example), we know WoW and Blizzard's lineup can do the same.

It had to be a reason, from Activision-Blizzard, to not impliment this feature. Point blank.


Because all MMOs' architecture is the same as Blizzard's so that means whatever they're (everyone else) doing is possible, right? O_o
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
10/05/2011 12:52 PMPosted by Mortamix
Ugh, please don't spam my mailbox for a new character with BoAs I don't need/won't be able to use. Please do it the right way. Take your time, figure out how to send it via the in game mail system and I'll send it to the character I want. Otherwise I'll just be deleting useless BoAs that get mailed to me if you follow the 'advice' of some of the people in this thread.


The time spent deleting said BoAs would be recouped by the time you hit ~level 10. That's not counting if you put in an opt-in button, or a class/usability check in.

10/05/2011 12:54 PMPosted by Mvura
Stop and think for a second. Do you really think that many people transfer their heirlooms all over the place? Wouldn't that just be one of many many reasons to transfer a character? Do you really think there's someone sitting behind the curtain, tapping his fingertips, cackling about his Heirloom Character Transfer Extortion Scheme (HeCTES!).


it's something that does make them some (probably very small) amount of money, and makes a lot more less happy. He's going overboard, but you can't blame him for the premise. Companies are there to make money, including blizzard. Hence why we don't have free realm xfers (that, and a few servers that are currently "Dead" would become completely dead).


It goes both ways. There are crazy conspiracy theorists, the people who will defend something they don't understand as being impossibly difficult, and all the people in between. You know, the sane people.

It's not unreasonable to ask them to shed some more light on the issue, especially since we can't see behind the curtain. Some people are going to trust them, others won't ever be satisfied, and some are a shade of gray. Asking them to be more transparent isn't a bad thing(and to say they need to work on that, in all aspects of the game, would be an understatement).
1 Draenei Paladin
0
10/05/2011 11:41 AMPosted by Zarhym
It's a very big one as far as programming is concerned.


It honestly seems like you guys are making excuses instead of just doing it.

You're the biggest, best MMO around. You really don't get to claim that things are 'too hard.' :\
86 Blood Elf Mage
6740
I understand the programming issue but I do like the idea of unlocking it. I also understand the wanting to do the mail thing and the many reasons that could be an issue. But why not make it a buy to unlock the item, then just make it a 1 per account thing? that way you don't have people with 10000 boas running around, the person obviously put in their time for the piece and it can be deleted / picked up on any server. Obviously the intent is to buy the item once, and then should someone choose to re-roll to another server they can just as easily pickup their heirlooms and you would eliminate any mail box issues. Just a thought.

P.S. Honestly you people need to give Blizzard some credit. They made the game, you still play it, and they work hard to make it enjoyable for everyone so QQ and take what you get.
Edited by Elrondd on 10/5/2011 1:08 PM PDT
Community Manager
10/05/2011 11:53 AMPosted by Tyrazsun
I just don't see why you guys don't like the idea of mailing them to each toon. Sure, it's messy, but i don't see how it's better than nothing, unless you want more people transfering toons. If it means i can have BoAs, i can live with deleting an extra 5 mails on a new toon.. I already get spammed by 3-4 pets anyway.

Look, we know people want to be able to send the BoAs they've earned to any character on their account. We want the same. But we have no intention of fundamentally changing the reward system just to work around the limitations of the current mail setup. The way a BoA item is obtained on a per-character basis shouldn't be trivialized just for a "quick fix." Not to mention that, even changing the BoA reward system to unlock for all of your characters an item you've purchased on one of them, would still be much more than an insignificant development undertaking.

This is how it needs to work (which is no different than the current functionality, with the exception of the cross-realm feature):

    1) You earn the required currency to purchase a BoA on a character.
    2) You then have the ability to send that BoA to any character on your account with no realm or faction restriction.

In order to do that, some level of integration of in-game mail needs to be made so the system is cross-realm. Such a system doesn't exist. The WoW in-game mail system was designed from the start to be a realm-specific thing and has no "communication" across realms. That's what we need to change via some complicated programming -- like I said before, we don't want a symptom of implementing this feature to be that in-game mail is no longer realm-specific. Rather, we need a way for you to send yourself an item from one realm to another, but make that an exception to all existing rules/limitations of the current mail setup.
86 Dwarf Hunter
3155
All BoAs should have the ability to be mailed cross realm, easy solution:

IF $BoA = 1 THEN $AbilityToMailCrossRealm = 1
IF $AbilityToMailCrossRealm = 1 THEN GOTO 'line that equals the ability mail !@#$'
IF $AbilityToMailCrossRealm = 0 THEN PRINT "Try try again, noob."

Solved.

Hey, that almost exactly like the code on the satellite dish that I program:

IF satelliteIsVisible then track_satellite
ELSE do_not_track

The rest of the 1.3MB executable is just for show. Software is easy.
90 Troll Hunter
12760
Customer service has everything to do with managing expectations. On this issue I feel Blizzard has done a poor job.

If people are making wild guesses or jumping to conclusions or whatever(tin foil hat), that is on Blizzard more than it is on players who have been baited along and kept in the dark for 2 years on this issue.
85 Worgen Druid
5650
Complicated or not, it's all relative. It might be complicated for a single person to do, but let's not forget how many programmers Blizzard employs. If the decision was made in a meeting to go ahead and get this done, do we really think that it would take a few college educated game programmers and netadmins more than a few hours to have a working implementation on the ptr?

The code to move items already exists in the game or else GMs wouldn't be able to grant you an item or take an item away. Having database scripts that can move items from one realm / database instance to another shouldn't be something that we refer to as "difficult" in this day and age. The only problem I can think of that might be a stumbling block would be checking names against a database, I.E "CoolwarriorZ" might be your toon on another realm, but on this realm, that name belongs to someone else.

Well, this is why you hire skilled DBAs isn't it?

I wouldn't normally be taking this position, but I think we've got some things in game right now that are meant to be shared between all the characters on an account, regardless of what server they play on and I just don't buy the fact that it's so technically challenging. Hate on me all you want, but I think Blizzard takes the "technical limitations" road when it's not really appropriate when you consider what's possible with the technology we have available.
84 Night Elf Druid
5770
Blizzard's obligation isn't to keep it's customers up to date on experimental features. You have to understand that if Blizzard said, "Oh, we're trying this new feature" then everyone will take it as a promise. If Blizzard doesn't deliver on promises, they look bad, e.g.: the dance studio, moose mount, etc. The moose mount is a really good example because it wasn't even a promise, it was joke. Yet people purposely construed it as a promise and some people to this day won't shut the heck up about it.

Blizzard is pretty careful about what it "promises" and what it holds back.

What you're talking about specifically is called various things in the industry, but essentially it's exploratory research and development. It basically gives a team carte blanche to try different things while assuming the risk of failure is high.


People will !@#$%, moan and complain about anything, though. Hell, they're just as bad even with nothing to work on. most of them would do it no matter what.

I know what you mean, because they have/had a similar problem with class development. They were more open in wotlk, people started complaining because they took everything as a promise, and now they pulled back. But the same people are still complaining about dumb stuff.
I don't think you can really fix the complainers. The best you can do is communicate clearly with the people who'll understand what's going on.

So does it actually generate more complaining, if they explain things clearly? I mean, i don't want a log of all the nitty gritty. Honestly, i couldn't care less if <x> didn't work today and they scrapped it. But there's an in between.

I won't disagree with that, but it doesn't mean Blizzard should continue down the path of band-aid solutions. As a programmer, seeing something like that tells me Blizzard doesn't care about the technical quality of the products they make. That means someone at Blizzard knowingly decided to make band-aid solutions. I certainly wouldn't want to work in a place like that.

Thankfully, that's not the case anymore. I believe in the last Blizzcast (from a hundred years ago), Ghostcrawler used the example of the mount system, which was patched with bandaids for years to fit in flying mounts, rare mounts, epic mounts, and duration-based mounts like the broom. He then went on to say that they fixed that up from band-aids to a full-featured, easier-to-use (for programmers and other developers) system.


Well, with the amount of people they have working on it, and how big the game is (nevermind how much longer past it's expected time it's lasted), it's inevitable. But yeah, bandaids should be avoided wherever possible. But at this point, it's been ~2 years since we got BoAs, and who knows how much longer? I've had to work with slapped together code, and nothing is worse (except having to work with sloppy code written by someone else who isn't around!)
There should be (and probably was/is) cost/benefit analysis going on. I wouldn't mind hearing a little bit about that.

Yes, and piggybacking existing systems is what band-aid solutions are. And that's bad. If you have the opportunity to build a complete and elegant solution for something that is well done, well documented, then that solution is preferable over the band-aid solution even if it costs more, even if it takes more time. Because it will pay for itself if it's well done.


Yeah, it's definitely preferable. But i think there's a tipping point, in how long it'll take, etc. I really have no idea how long it'll take for the good solution. For all i know, it could be christmas, or it could be 2 more years. But if it's years, a band aid in the short term might make up for what it costs in uglyness/money/time, for having a service faster. so some idea of that would be nice, somwhere in between "soon" and "basically never"
85 Undead Rogue
2475
I am not entirely sure where to put this, so I will post it here and hope it gets moved to the appropriate forum.

On the subject of people wanting to transfer BoA-Heirloom items to other servers without having to pay transfer fees, why not just do something like this (Which would save a lot of coding time I would think):

Currently how the system works, is you purchase an item from the heirloom vendor with Justice Points and you have access to that item on that server only unless of course you transfer a character with it.

Why not make it so when you purchase an item, you aren't buying the item right then and there, but you are "unlocking" it for the account. You would have a vendor in each major city that then sells the BoA items (that have been unlocked) to new characters on any server for that account for free/1c so players may join their friends on other servers with accelerated leveling (because if we own BoA items we don't want to level slowly, ever) without having to worry about paying $25 every time a friend plays on another server.

This presumably wouldn't put any excess load on the character database since there is already a cap of 50 characters per account.

This would save the dev team from having to write code to link every server in a global mailing service.

What do others think?

Just my $0.02


why would they want to do this and miss out on the extra money they make from people transferring toons with boa's on them
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