1.35% of all wow players completed normal FL

I have 3 level 85 alts. None of them have downed Ragnaros and I don't plan to down him with them until I get Ragnaros's trinket.
85 Tauren Death Knight
1150
10/13/2011 03:34 PMPosted by Bomdanil
This is what I believe is the Central problem with Cata, the effects of that change are far reaching and universally negative.


Actually no, the 10/25m shared lock out has not been universally negative. For those of us that both enjoy the smaller raid size for personal preference or technical limitation reasons and those of us that dislike being forced to carry 15 trade pugs through 25s just for progression purposes it's been a boon beyond belief. The fact that 10s are so popular compared to 25s, even when 10s are tuned more tightly than 25s due to lack of rezs and output, shows just how unpopular the 25m raid model actually was amongst most raiders.


Which in some cases is just too funny too. Especially considering the eyeball boss in BH is a complete faceroll joke in 25 man, but can pose a minor challange depending on the group in 10.
90 Gnome Warlock
1785
Which in some cases is just too funny too. Especially considering the eyeball boss in BH is a complete faceroll joke in 25 man, but can pose a minor challange depending on the group in 10.


I remember the first week the new BH boss was out and they put the 25m version of the eyes in the 10m raid. 10m pugs were still beating him like he just crapped on the carpet, even on my horrible backwater server.
100 Dwarf Warrior
13425
10/13/2011 02:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That’s not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.

It shouldn't have taken the development team a year to confirm — by disproving theories championing high difficulty — the reason for Icecrown Citadel's longevity and popularity, but this apparent final acceptance is certainly welcome. The game's strength (and future) is in repeatable experiences that vary just enough to preserve novelty and challenge: to wit, full normal progression in 15 weeks or so, and gameplay that facilitates re-running content with multiple alt characters. It's simple and it's obvious. It may not be compelling to some players or designers, but it's reality.
90 Human Paladin
6565
10/13/2011 03:38 PMPosted by Normie
they are just adding a dumbed down version that provides...no mounts....no achievements...and lesser gear.

I think the lack of achievements and special rewards is a mistake. The gear levels, that's perfectly reasonable.

Plus you have to work with people you don't know.

That's the only way that most people who aren't currently raiding will ever be able to raid.


So what's the sense of accomplishment? Nothing dings when that one dang boss finally goes down. You get no chance for anything that proves you were actually there and accomplished something.

Ya know what would make a lot more pools of raiders accessible to those who are currently shut out? Removing the 10/25 lock out. I know a lot of raiders who would love to do alt runs with friends..but they can't. They have to save their lock outs for their real raids.
85 Draenei Paladin
1370
isn't 1.35 135%?

Like how .50=50% ...

Is it just me?
90 Worgen Death Knight
11925
10/13/2011 02:32 PMPosted by Bashiok
And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


Made me laugh pretty hard. <3 Just had to say
Edited by Nazli on 10/13/2011 3:46 PM PDT
2 Dwarf Shaman
0
isn't 1.35 135%?

Like how .50=50% ...

Is it just me?


www.math.com
90 Pandaren Rogue
5815
And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


Sir, I'm going to have to ask you to put the table back in it's place.
85 Tauren Death Knight
1150
10/13/2011 03:42 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Which in some cases is just too funny too. Especially considering the eyeball boss in BH is a complete faceroll joke in 25 man, but can pose a minor challange depending on the group in 10.


I remember the first week the new BH boss was out and they put the 25m version of the eyes in the 10m raid. 10m pugs were still beating him like he just crapped on the carpet, even on my horrible backwater server.


Oh, we were too. I was just commenting on how laughable 25 man is for that boss than the 10 man is.

And to the person who mentioned that you're supprised it took them a year to figure out that 20-25% of the playerbase seeing the end boss of a raid die is odd. It makes perfect sense to me, after all GC even commented that all the devs raid heroic modes. They're so far removed from the bulk of the game's subscriber base, you'd expect to get what we got in Cata.
90 Human Paladin
13535
10/13/2011 02:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
Others are motivated by the challenge, and if things are too easy, they lose interest. These players also tend to assume that everyone shares their mindset and they will be happy to wipe on a fight over and over and over with hopes of improving. In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they’re done raiding and potentially even playing.


This was pretty much the nail in my coffin. Tier 11 raids were not tuned for the majority of players and there was no introductory level raid. I have one Magmaw kill in that tier and that's it. We were throwing bodies at Magmaw for a few hours and wiping and losing resources, food, gold for repairs, and mostly just the drive to clear it. What was marked as the easiest kill in the tier at the time was a blatant underestimation by the top percentage of raiders. It didn't take long after that for the numbers to just start dropping in my guild. Either they server hopped, went to a different guild, quit entirely, or faction changed with a name change. I haven't stepped foot in a Tier 12 raid and I struggle to just find a reason to log on anymore. I've been on a hiatus for a few weeks to debate coming back or not. If I do come back I hope to at least get some use out of this expansion instead of just giving me a faster way to level alts.
10/13/2011 03:46 PMPosted by Normie
The reason people fail is for two reasons: 1) they don't possess the mental powers or willingness to problem solve, or 2) they have no clue how to play their class.

Here's that thing where once you have spent hours every week for a year or five becoming extremely skilled at WoW, you judge everyone less skilled as if your accomplishment was trivial.


It's also a fine example of the mentality I think a lot of retired former hardcore raiders are tired of.
90 Draenei Shaman
13090
10/13/2011 02:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
we don’t want to develop a raid that only 2% of our raiders can see. We will make sure that there are challenging encounters for players who enjoy that sort of thing (as many of us professional game developers do), but then our goal will be to, over time, broaden the potential audience by bringing the content difficulty down. We think the shock with Firelands for some players was that the nerfs were so severe instead of gradual.


Not wanting to develop raids for 2% of the player base is a fair sentiment. I want everyone to see Firelands, I want everyone to see tier 11 and 13 raids, and everything that has come before and will come in the future. The content is (usually) a lot of fun. There are some issues, though.


Players who are leveling experience no challenge whatsoever until level 85, which is fairly contrary to the challenge present in the game in classic and through most of Burning Crusade. Back then, running a dungeon was a challenge. You had to CC, and you had to have someone tank and someone to heal to survive, and it wasn't always easy. Good teamwork would nearly always prevail, however.
Now you que up and can almost guarantee you are going to complete the dungeon, and in many cases, you could complete it yourself without the help of the other 4 people in your group. I did an Underbog run recently on a level 64 Rogue (Without BoA gear) with a Death Knight friend of mine (also without BoA gear) of around the same level, and we were moving pretty fast through the dungeon. The healer felt we were moving too fast (his mana was occasionally dipping below 90%), and after saying so, refused to heal us. I said it doesn't really matter if he heals us or not - we'll clear the place without his help. Maybe that was rude of me, but it was either that or lie... His response was "you're nothing without heals" but we managed to clear the entire rest of the dungeon without a healer or significant downtime, including 3 bosses and multiple groups of trash packs pulled simultaneously. Dunno if you're aware without checking, but Rogues at level 64 don't even have an AoE ability. When groups can completely ignore what should be required to be successful in a dungeon, you're not helping to train new players how to play, only causing the gap between the top and bottom to increase. Giving players stuff for free is never the correct answer in games at all, and that's all the level 1-84 leveling experience does - gives you free stuff for being there. No challenge whatsoever.


The gap between the top and bottom tiers of players has widened significantly, and continues to widen. When a player's ability rotation involves "Cast Fireball..." or "Keep Slice and Dice up..." it's hard for skill to play as huge of a role.... and in a game like this, that's a good thing. The skilled players will always manage to do things faster than those who are unskilled. While I'm not too interested in having every spec play as simple as a Burning Crusade Elemental Shaman, the other extreme isn't really a great thing either. The complexity of some of these specs can remain as they are... but the delta between extremely skilled and new player should probably be toned down a lot. Doing that will greatly reduce the need to have 3 raid settings instead of 2, doing that will allow lesser skilled groups to complete the very same content (instead of nerfed versions) but at a slower pace because they aren't at such a huge damage/healing numbers disadvantage, but the best groups will continue to complete the content first for the same reasons they have from day one until now.

There either needs to be some form of readily available in-game tutorial for players playing each spec so they can understand the basics, and/or the gap between perfect rotation execution vs. barely grasping those basics needs to be reduced. Not removed - reduced. Do that and you won't feel the need to nerf content nearly as much. Yes, skill should play a factor, and skill did play a factor even when most dps specs only had one or two buttons to press. The skill factor, though, is currently too extreme.

This was brought to light for me in Cataclysm Beta - I did a Heroic Deadmines on Beta with two Shadow Priests in the group. Both were premades, fully gemmed and enchanted. One was a long-time guild mate of mine, the other was a pug. The guild mate is a top-tier capable player, the pug... was not. Their times spent casting were similar - the pug certainly wasn't lagging, but on every individual pull and overall by the end of the run, my guildy had nearly tripled his damage output. That's 4000 average dps vs. 12,000 average dps in the blue quality Shadow Priest premade gear. Shouldn't this be a bit more like 8000 to 12000? With such a huge gap, OF COURSE you're going to have to create 3 levels of content. If this disparity was cut in half, though, you'd only need two, and the nerfs wouldn't need to happen to such a large degree at any point.
Edited by Ashunera on 10/13/2011 4:00 PM PDT
85 Tauren Death Knight
1150
10/13/2011 03:50 PMPosted by Alona

Here's that thing where once you have spent hours every week for a year or five becoming extremely skilled at WoW, you judge everyone less skilled as if your accomplishment was trivial.


It's also a fine example of the mentality I think a lot of retired former hardcore raiders are tired of.


It is, there are a lot of over stuffed Peacocks floating around the internet playing arm-chair developer that think that WoW should be moving more Hard Core and stay that way. WoWs success was accessability and being the first MMO where average players could even get to the end game and see the raiding game. Rather than expanding on that, like they did in Wrath, they went backwards in time and backwards in the growth of the game.
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