1.35% of all wow players completed normal FL

85 Draenei Paladin
1370
The thing is, hardcore raiders who are really proficient and successful are among the most reasonable, patient people in the game. They have to be. They have to grind without complaint. They have to endure countless wipes. They're not the problem in the game. In fact they're one of its greatest assets.

There's another group of hardcores, however, who ARE a major problem.
That group isn't really "Hardcore" though. That group is actually people who play a lot but never really go past normal raids. They think raiding normals makes them hardcore. Not all of them are like that but a good amount really think their normal rag kill makes them elite.
90 Gnome Warlock
1740
Tier 11 raids were not tuned for the majority of players and there was no introductory level raid. I have one Magmaw kill in that tier and that's it. We were throwing bodies at Magmaw for a few hours and wiping and losing resources, food, gold for repairs, and mostly just the drive to clear it. What was marked as the easiest kill in the tier at the time was a blatant underestimation by the top percentage of raiders.


Dude, I'm sorry, but Magmaw was about as tank and spank as Argaloth. You had 1 person kite the parasites, 2 people do the chains, and you beat him in the head for double damage every 30 seconds until he hits 3% (in which case he just falls over and dies because he lost the will to live).

The only fight easier than Magmaw was TW/Netherdrake/Whelps on Halfus. V&T was pretty ridiculously easy too, but that involves not standing in stuff and people find that difficult for some reason.


It's also a fine example of the mentality I think a lot of retired former hardcore raiders are tired of.

The thing is, hardcore raiders who are really proficient and successful are among the most reasonable, patient people in the game. They have to be. They have to grind without complaint. They have to endure countless wipes. They're not the problem in the game. In fact they're one of its greatest assets.

There's another group of hardcores, however, who ARE a major problem.


Exactly. It's the people who, when they see someone in the raid failing, would rather complain about the person in raid and private channels for 15-20 minutes rather than actually help them or propose solutions that ruins a large percentage of the raiding experience.

Dealing with a raiding snob is really tiring.
85 Tauren Death Knight
1150
10/13/2011 03:57 PMPosted by Normie
Players who are leveling experience no challenge whatsoever until level 85

Completely untrue.

People who are leveling their 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th alts experience less challenge.

People who are doing it for the first time have plenty to occupy themselves.

People doing it for the second time have a similar yet different challenge as they are supported by the resources from their first character.

You forget how hard learning the "basics" of the game is. It's plenty hard.


Ummm, are you talking about making macro's and such? Because honestly, there's very little difference between the basics of WoW and any other RPG out there. Only learning the core interface.
85 Gnome Death Knight
5240
10/13/2011 02:32 PMPosted by Bashiok
And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


After seeing this I don't really care what the rest of this thread is about ... I just sat here and had one of the best laughs I have had in a long time.

LOVE this comment. *clap*

I've never really had a "favourite" blue ... but after seeing how Bashiok can lay down the information and still have a bit of fun with the situation I will have to say I am becoming a fanbois.
Edited by Evoom on 10/13/2011 4:03 PM PDT
41 Gnome Warlock
9180
10/13/2011 02:32 PMPosted by Bashiok
And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


Best blue quote ever.

I think the game is in an ok state, not necessarily a great state. I'll be happy with the changes coming down to pipeline to the RDF (yay, more than 2 instances for my dungeons) and with the possibility of a pick up style raid through the Raid Finder as well.

My guild is small, it's mostly working adults who still want to game. We don't have time for screwing around while making a raid group so we use a roster system and bring the same 10 people as often as possible. Sometimes we can't all make it so we recruit people to fill in for us, but without regular slots these people get bored and leave. Something where we can grab 5-10 random guildies on an off night and do something more meaningful with them would be cool, so I'm hoping the raid finder provides that.
90 Draenei Mage
17335
10/13/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Ony
be content with wiping because they refuse to dedicate the 2 minutes it takes to identify a problem and offer a solution.
Exaggeration much? Paragon wiped hundreds of time to Rag. Do they suck because it took them more than 2 minutes?

I get what you are saying and I see the logic in your post. It's just that sentences like that undermine your words and upset people. If it really takes you and your group 2 minutes to get a fight mastered even WITH watching strats then you should be competing for world first heroic kills.


My intent was with normal modes. Some mechanics are easy and some are much harder and require a lot of practice to perfect. There are people in this game that go into T11 raids, post their mega nerf and wipe on the earliest bosses for the simplest of reasons.

Let me give you an example from two encounters.

One is H Ragnaros and how you deal with Molten Seeds. You group up, run before the seeds land based on a timer, and then aoe your hearts out at range and hope they're all dead before they melee someone for 250k. That is difficult to execute the first time you're trying it out. It takes practice. That is pretty new to the game. I can assure you, after they wiped to it a handful of times, Paragon identified the problem and was testing out solutions until they found one that worked best for them.

What I'm describing in the pug scenario is wiping to the same thing, over and over again, because that analysis did not happen and there's no effort to make a change. Then the group disbands with everyone calling each other bad. My example is regular mode Magmaw.

The fire pillar is coming. In ~5 seconds fire is going to explode underneath your feet. What is the solution? You simply move to the other 99% of the room where this won't happen. What happens if you don't? Player dies. Domino effect (no enough healing left maybe, not enough dps on parasites, whatever). But you wipe. The player who keeps getting hit and dying doesn't make an effort to fix it. That happens in this game often.
85 Worgen Warlock
15180
10/13/2011 02:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That’s not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.


Hey Bashiok,

That's a great and totally understandable design philosophy, but i do wish to comment on something that's been on my mind.

For the 2% of us "hardcore" raiders we throw ourselves at these encounters for countless hours to be the first to defeat them before anyone else. That's fun for us, but in the end we only have a silly time-stamp achievement to show our success. Ill list an example as to what i mean.

These heroic 100% drop mounts and heroic achievement titles are cool and all, but as the nerfs slowly start to roll in they're more accessible by more and more players. Now that is a good thing, because these players have also been working on these encounters for a very long time and deserve the rewards. But from my perspective i almost feel as if the "epicness" of my rewards have been diminished when i see players running around with Pureblood Fire Hawks, and Firelord titles that have been achieved after nerfs and bosses simply fall over.

I always tend to go back to my realm-first titles because they're unique and show some type of accomplishment.

My question to you is, do you guys see this as something that needs to be looked at with the current state of your design goals? I'd love to hear your opinion!

ty!
85 Tauren Paladin
7685
10/13/2011 02:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
As others have pointed out, your 1.35% is just wrong due to the stats MMO is stating, but whatever, we’re not going to reveal any of our internal numbers to show how wrong you are, or discount the numbers posted on MMO for that matter. I will say they’re likely as accurate as they can be. Meaning, they’re wrong, but at no fault of theirs simply due to the data they have available to them. While we do have data we pull and review very regularly, it’s not always a true measure of success or failure without considering the context.

I have trouble believing their stats are wrong if you're refusing to post the true stats. In fact, the refusal to post the true stats lends credence to their stats being right and Blizzard not wanting the players to know it's possible to get accurate stats via the armory. Besides, why does Blizzard fear sharing statistical information like this so much? A competitor can't use it against you, players will have a more accurate base for debating poin.... oooh... nevermind, i see now.
85 Tauren Death Knight
1150
10/13/2011 03:59 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Tier 11 raids were not tuned for the majority of players and there was no introductory level raid. I have one Magmaw kill in that tier and that's it. We were throwing bodies at Magmaw for a few hours and wiping and losing resources, food, gold for repairs, and mostly just the drive to clear it. What was marked as the easiest kill in the tier at the time was a blatant underestimation by the top percentage of raiders.


Dude, I'm sorry, but Magmaw was about as tank and spank as Argaloth. You had 1 person kite the parasites, 2 people do the chains, and you beat him in the head for double damage every 30 seconds until he hits 3% (in which case he just falls over and dies because he lost the will to live).

The only fight easier than Magmaw was TW/Netherdrake/Whelps on Halfus. V&T was pretty ridiculously easy too, but that involves not standing in stuff and people find that difficult for some reason.


In their defense, not standing in the "bad" and positioning was considered an advanced raiding skill in classic, BC, and most of Wrath...

It's only been in Cata that it's been pushing into the light as a standard mechanic. Same with interupting, extreme add control, and massive AOE damage.



Cata took quite a few raiding mechanics and concepts that were previously only on end-of-raid bosses and put them on the first 4...
90 Draenei Mage
17335
10/13/2011 03:53 PMPosted by Normie
There's another group of hardcores, however, who ARE a major problem.


All we're asking is that in one of the 3 difficulty levels they're making for raids, one can not be eviscerated so we can have a good time too.
90 Night Elf Hunter
14905
Blizzard seems to miss a key point with the vast majority of the player base. We don't like having to work another part time job..or as you call it "Raid". The time investment is just beyond a majority of the society who's lives are rather busy. Raid finder is a good step in the right direction. You have a few hours to kill, then que for RF and maybe kill a few bosses..


What's the time difference between doing a 10m with your friends/guildmates/random server people and doing a 25m LFR? You're still going to have to hope that the people you're running with know what they're doing. You're still going to spend a few hours potentially killing bosses. The time investment you put into the game is totally voluntary. If you choose to do research on fights outside of the dungeon journal, that's your choice. If you choose to spend hours min/maxing your character, that's your choice. If you spend hours working out the perfect rotation for your spec, that's your choice.

Raiding in Warcraft does not require that you do anything other than show up, hit the boss/heal men/tank the boss, and avoid bad stuff. If you can't do any of those without it feeling like a second job then you need to evaluate your priorities in life.
Edited by Dyrthor on 10/13/2011 4:06 PM PDT
90 Gnome Warlock
1740
Biggest mistake in Cata is trying to talk from both sides of the mouth, in an effort to appease a fractured community, fractured due to ghettoizing the game between casual and hardcore.


There is no such fracture. There is a fracture between those that know how to play, and those that don't. There are casual and hardcores on both sides of that particular divide, but for some reason anyone labelled as part of the "know how to play" part get tossed in with the world first progression camp.
85 Tauren Druid
11575
On the subject of multiple difficulty settings...
Can we get that with the Raid finders?

The developers tend to underestimate the willingness of many skilled players of do the organizational work to put together a balanced raid. Speaking as a former raider and multi year vet, encounter difficulty has little to do me raiding so little this expansion. I'd just rather not play wow than go through the hassle of putting together a pug raid or joining a regularly scheduled raid. Don't like the extra time sensitive scheduling in this point of my life, where I didn't mind it all in my school days where I had so much free time.

I fully accept the higher failure rate of a normal mode and heroic mode pug raid. That way I can attempt the content I wish on the difficulty setting that I want to run it.

Recognize the decline for what it is. A lack of interest in the "log on at x time, on y char, to clear raids content from time a to b" model.


This, a thousand times this.The guild i ran called it quits after clearing t11 in normal back in february. Many of us we were just no longer willing and/or able to make the necessary time commitments to each other, and i was getting increasingly frustrated and burnt out trying to field extras and replacements to accommodate those that were. I've let my subscription lapse off and on since then, about half of my guild has quit altogether while the rest are playing very casually, only 2 are still actively raiding.

I've played this game for 6 years and had a blast for most all of it. This will be the first time ever i've wholly skipped a raid tier, I've not done a single boss in the firelands; and i do miss it. So i am extremely excited for the raid finder, i've already talked to a couple of my buddies about coming back and we're all looking foreward to being able to simply log on when we have the time and play the game together.

That said. We have been talking about just how nerf'd the content will have to be to be accessible in a dungeon finder type setting and we've accepted the fact that it probably won't be the worlds most satisfying raid experience, as we're used to pushing heroic level content. I think the idea to have higher difficulty settings would be a great feature to add to the raid finder down the line. Obviously it'd have to work differently, likely ona per boss basis rather than wings, and the qualifications would have to be stricter. But i know that such a system would be immensely enjoyable for people like me. Just something to think about for the future.
90 Draenei Death Knight
0
Players are motivated to raid (and do any content for that matter) for a lot of different reasons. A sizeable number of players are satisfied with seeing most of the game content once. If they kill the dragon or slay the Lich King, they (appropriately) feel like they have won the game. That view is pretty heretical to the traditional raider, who is used to working for weeks to defeat a boss and then spending the next few weeks or months farming that boss so that their group has a leg up for the next tier of content.

...

In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they’re done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that’s not really our design goal.


In reading these thoughts, it really strikes me that part of the problem today that we're seeing is a symptom of how finely your designers are tuning raid bosses. An early boss like Shannox is being as tightly tuned as Ragnaros even on normal difficulty. This is creating an entirely different feel and dynamic to raiding than back in vanilla.

I remember the kinds of gear we were wearing for early Lucifron and Magmadar kills. Mishmashes of greens and blues from all over. To successfully break into BWL or AQ, you hardly needed to have exhaustively geared yourself. Through a raid the boss fights were tuned for different levels of gear and skill, gradually increasing. This is why it took weeks to progress. A little more farming in between could give you a leg up, a little more practice at older raid content to perfect raiding skill and coordination. Raid difficulties were staggered, not hard set tiers. You could get a foothold by clearing early bosses, slowly building up better gear.

In Cataclysm the art of tuning bosses has been so perfected that I think it's become self defeating. The barrier to entry to raiding has become enormous, insurmountable to many players, even those I know who used to raid 25 mans during Wrath successfully. Without any way to get a foothold, it becomes seemingly impossible to break into raiding to these people. I don't think asking them to relegate themselves to the raid finder alone is the solution.

The entire difficulty and learning curve of raiding ought to be examined, especially in current tier normal modes. I don't find the nerf later approach to be a satisfactory solution.
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