1.35% of all wow players completed normal FL

10/13/2011 04:26 PMPosted by Boubouille
Honestly, Bibi, you should just put a big disclaimer on the top of the site saying "IF YOU !@#$% AT BLIZZARD BASED SOLELY ON SOMETHING YOU SEE HERE I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN AND KICK YOU IN THE CROTCH."


I do that like, all the time.


Add a pie chart. Everyone loves pie charts. Here, I'll make a pie chart right now:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/amalythia/piechart.jpg

please note that there is a 1% margin of error, as is customary with pie charts.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12135
10/13/2011 04:25 PMPosted by Cindyanne
Cata took the "Fun" out of Raiding for alot of folks


It certainly did for me. Actually for me, the fun in WoW died the first time I tried a Cata heroic back in December.

It was just... I mean I didn't even recognize the game any more.
I guess you never played during Vanilla and BC?
85 Human Paladin
4475
I used to raid pretty hardcore, now I just have no interest in the raid content.

A few things I have to say about raids.

Blizzard does not police ninjas so a lot of people I know simply don't do pug raids at all.

Getting competent tanks is very hard and there are no rewards to the person that tanks other than being able to lead and then pocket/ninja shards.

If Blizzard can solve the tanking shortages and ninja, then people would come back and raid more. It is simply too risky and time consuming to raid and leave empty handed when ninjas wipe away all your time and effort.

And spending 1/2 - 1 hour waiting for tanks or healers is another big problem.



100 Blood Elf Paladin
18700
Since the nerf happened a few weeks ago my raid team has gotten 6/7 down (from 2/7 pre-nerf), but Ragnaros seems like he'll be the stopping point for many players.

The fight itself requires more communication and skill than anything else in Firelands, by a LARGE margin. I'd love to see that fight brought in line with all of the others, it can still be harder but there's no reason for it to be this much harder.

Personally, I think adding 1.35% to the number of players who have defeated Rag is an embarrassingly small amount.
85 Night Elf Druid
4760
personaly i agree with u Ivaredbush. the death of 25 mans was a big hit to a lot of people but its not the end of the world. I raided a bit and dabbled in raid leading for ICC and i enjoyed 10 mans much more than 25s because there were less people to organize and less people that would screw up. I don't think that the cataclysm model killed 25 mans, but left them more to the extremely dedicated players.

on the side of the cata raids, yeah the tactics are simpler and pretty much every tactic is stack run and dont stand in stuff but i do enjoy the different bosses. particularly the council in BOT and my favorite fight over all has to be atramedes in BWD purely because the basis of their tactics are 'dont stand in this' and 'run'. I think blizz was trying to simplify tactics so that they could appeal to the common player who didnt have time to raid regularly but could pug old style content every now and then.

Overall blizz rocked my socks off with this expansion and I can't wait to see wat else they have in store for us
90 Night Elf Druid
15810
10/13/2011 04:30 PMPosted by Ony
They gave casual players and those lacking skill the access to these raids (10man raiding) to keep subscriptions from dropping by the millions
This quote and this quote

I believe the solution is to make ALL raiding 15man. Raid groups will most likely have to still carry bad players but not enough to make it a chore people don't enjoy.
Don't match


I'll explain: You are implying that 10 man raiding is for bads but then you admit that bads get carried in 25 mans. So that means that 10 mans you cant afford to be bad because the group can't carry you like a 25 man can.

So what is it? Are 10 mans designed for "bads" or is 25 mans for bads?


What I am saying is that "most" 25man raid groups have players that perform at a level less than what would be desired. We are all not Paragon/Ensidia/Vodka/<Insert Top World/US guild>. 10mans were rewarded with equal gear and "equal rights" to keep more players raiding.
85 Tauren Paladin
9485
10/13/2011 04:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
Bottom line is that no matter what numbers we show you, it's not going to make any situations 'better'. From time to time we show StarCraft II players literal win/loss %, as accurate as they can possibly be pulled from the source itself, and they're either ignored (because players simply don't want to believe their experiences are "wrong") or laughed at as being some underhanded plot to feed them misinformation.


Terran are not OP (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
90 Night Elf Druid
15810
10/13/2011 04:37 PMPosted by Magnijung
Bottom line is that no matter what numbers we show you, it's not going to make any situations 'better'. From time to time we show StarCraft II players literal win/loss %, as accurate as they can possibly be pulled from the source itself, and they're either ignored (because players simply don't want to believe their experiences are "wrong") or laughed at as being some underhanded plot to feed them misinformation.


Terran are not OP (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


Says Cptn. Void Ray

:)
89 Human Paladin
0
10/13/2011 04:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
Bottom line is that no matter what numbers we show you, it's not going to make any situations 'better'. From time to time we show StarCraft II players literal win/loss %, as accurate as they can possibly be pulled from the source itself, and they're either ignored (because players simply don't want to believe their experiences are "wrong") or laughed at as being some underhanded plot to feed them misinformation.


I'm a Starcraft player. I read, appreciate, and am reassured by those numbers. I think it's not that people don't appreciate those numbers or don't view them as evidence of good balance; it's that those that do simply aren't as loud as the balance QQ brigade.
85 Draenei Paladin
1370
10/13/2011 04:39 PMPosted by Teyla
it's that those that do simply aren't as loud as the balance QQ brigade.
Sounds familiar
;)
85 Night Elf Priest
8150
10/13/2011 04:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
The point of not divulging statistics is that they are only one part of what drives overall goals and development. Unfortunately, the fundamental truth is that people put too much behind numbers (case in point, posts in this thread and a couple other dozen that sprung up because of the MMO post), and will build entire cases on them alone with no thought for context or meaning.



I would love to live in the world you do where things like this don't matter.
In the world the rest of us live in (the REAL world) the number of people that kill something means a hell of a lot.

Look at the number of people actually attempting to kill this stuff.
Then look at the number that DO kill this stuff.

Take the podcast "The Instance" for example. These are people that know quite a bit about the game but are casual raiders. They have struggled through FL for months now. They talk about it on the show.

If it takes a group of people that are just stupid hardcore to do content then it's not worth making.
Heroic should be hard as hell. Regular should be doable by most casual guilds.
That's why they're both there.


Any way you look at it, the fact remains that an estimated 5% of players have completed FL content and we're just weeks off of 4.3 release.
This is the prime example people will try ANY other game when they come out. Granted they usually come back to WoW, but they're still LOOKING for something else.
If you can't experience content you get frustrated. End of story.
Edited by Mädheal on 10/13/2011 4:44 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Priest
12135
10/13/2011 04:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
Bottom line is that no matter what numbers we show you, it's not going to make any situations 'better'. From time to time we show StarCraft II players literal win/loss %, as accurate as they can possibly be pulled from the source itself, and they're either ignored (because players simply don't want to believe their experiences are "wrong") or laughed at as being some underhanded plot to feed them misinformation.
Pretty much- when people are faced with facts that discredit their argument they have a tendency to either try to discredit or outright ignore those facts instead of changing their mind.
85 Human Mage
7180
10/13/2011 04:34 PMPosted by Suzushiiro


It certainly did for me. Actually for me, the fun in WoW died the first time I tried a Cata heroic back in December.

It was just... I mean I didn't even recognize the game any more.
I guess you never played during Vanilla and BC?


No, I didn't. I had heard of the game then, and knew people who played, and honestly didn't think it was my kind of game. I was pleasantly suprised when I did start to play in 2009 with how much I enjoyed it. And then to find out that apparently all of that (meaning WotLK) was a mistake and not really how the game was supposed to be was, frankly, a bit of a slap in the face and left me feeling like I'd been the target of a bait and switch.

It is getting better, I think. I really don't know since I pretty much gave up on raiding three or four months ago simply because I was sick of beating my head against a wall with people who weren't fun to beat my head against a wall with.
85 Tauren Paladin
7685
10/13/2011 04:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
The point of not divulging statistics is that they are only one part of what drives overall goals and development. Unfortunately, the fundamental truth is that people put too much behind numbers (case in point, posts in this thread and a couple other dozen that sprung up because of the MMO post), and will build entire cases on them alone with no thought for context or meaning.

Reinforcing what I said about Blizzard thinking they're customers are too dumb to understand.

10/13/2011 04:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
Bottom line is that no matter what numbers we show you, it's not going to make any situations 'better'.

You don't know that. You assume that and you're too afraid that the players will prove you wrong, not just on this, but also in how to deal with situations.

10/13/2011 04:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
From time to time we show StarCraft II players literal win/loss %, as accurate as they can possibly be pulled from the source itself, and they're either ignored (because players simply don't want to believe their experiences are "wrong") or laughed at as being some underhanded plot to feed them misinformation.

SC2 is a different community. A different mind set. While it's true many people play both, the core of the communities are vastly different. As for the information being laughed at, you only have yourselves to blame for that. You can't refuse to give up info and refuse and refuse and refuse and then expect a grand parade thanking you when you finally do; you're going to be greeted exactly as you have been, with skepticism, because the community has been led into feeling like you're only sharing the info to placate us, or to cover something else up.

10/13/2011 04:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
Numbers don't win us anything. They don't win you anything. Conversations are worth having - ones based on experiences and feelings. We know what the numbers say, but they don't mean anything if you are still unhappy with your enjoyment of the game and your perception of its direction.

Numbers are information, knowledge. Without knowledge, you're gimped. Without knowledge, fire is "magic". So it wins both sides a lot. Blizzard would be dumbfounded by the aptitude of the community to use them constructively, as proven by the numerous implications that you think the players are too dumb to handle the real numbers. Though I have to admit that at this stage of the merry-go-round, it would likely be a self-fulfilling prophecy because many of us would question the accuracy of the numbers just like they do in your SC2 community; wondering if you're hiding something or trying to cover something else up.
90 Night Elf Hunter
14905
10/13/2011 04:14 PMPosted by Normie
It's only been in Cata that it's been pushing into the light as a standard mechanic. Same with interupting, extreme add control, and massive AOE damage.

The control of movement, kiting/control of adds, random 50+% health splats to the entire raid, interrupting while simultaneously DPSing AND not standing in fire, all of that is beyond impossible to someone new to the game. A new player can't even comprehend what's going on. A new player can't even comprehend HOW to comprehend it.

I understand that people who have done it for years would like increasing challenges, but as Bashiok pointed out, that is a hill very few people are ever going to climb. Going from sitting down in front of an MMORPG for the first time, to a 10-man boss kill with Cataclysm mechanics, there's an absolutely immense amount of skill and knowledge that has to be acquired.


This is something that won't be fixed by providing an "Easy Difficulty" raid. If a player doesn't know when/how to hit ability X that won't get fixed when they're fighting a boss with 24 other players. That person who picks up Warcraft for the first time has to first level to 85. Now, during that time they should have learned that fire is bad and you do not want to stand in it and how to use abilities they have in their current spec. If they haven't they have yet another opportunity to learn that in normal/heroic dungeons. Anyone who's been in a random dungeon knows for themselves that a lot of people go into dungeons not knowing:

A) What to do
B) Where to go
C) How to play their current spec
D) How to gear their character
E) How not to stand in things
F) How to CC properly or leave things that are in CC alone
G) A dozen or more things that they could have learned while leveling

Now the new player is to blame for this as much as Blizzard is. Blizzard has made things easier, but at the same time isn't really going out of their way to teach players how to play their class. I've watched my girlfriend bounce between a low level shaman and paladin the last few nights. When she levels and trains at the class trainer she doesn't get a tutorial of what the new ability is....she just gets the new ability. The trainers should in fact train them to use the new ability if the player wishes to learn about it.

The person going from 1-85 just isn't given the knowledge they need, in game, to raid. That's what I thought part of the quest revamp was going to be. Instead players just sprint their way to 85 and don't get the knowledge they need to make the jump to raiding.
85 Human Paladin
4475
10/13/2011 04:35 PMPosted by Morlifero
personaly i agree with u Ivaredbush. the death of 25 mans was a big hit to a lot of people but its not the end of the world. I raided a bit and dabbled in raid leading for ICC and i enjoyed 10 mans much more than 25s because there were less people to organize and less people that would screw up. I don't think that the cataclysm model killed 25 mans, but left them more to the extremely dedicated players.


25m allows a guild to bring a few undergeared players to the raid. 10m, you simply cannot bring no more than 2 undergear players unless other players work extra hard to pull their weight.
89 Human Paladin
0
Sounds familiar
;)


If you think people QQ about class balance a lot here, you should see the Starcraft forums.

"ZOMGWTFBBQ TERaN SO OP WHY YOU NOF FIX BLIZZ I HATE THIS GAME WHYYYYYYY?!?!?!21?!/1!"
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