1.35% of all wow players completed normal FL

90 Tauren Druid
14585
i dont see what the fuss is all about. this is what blizz does. make a raid very very hard. top guild beat it.
they nerf it a lil, more guilds beat it.
they nerf it a lil more, even more guilds beat it.

the idea is to have the best players beat it early. sure, halfway thru 4.3 everyone can link their achieve to rag's death, but the better players will have an earlier date. a pre-nerf date.

they do this to make people happy, and sure, to keep subscriptions. happy players, play more.

^ i think this also ties into them letting us get the legendary in a 10 man. its not about 10 is harder or easier than 25s. its about some guilds dont like 25s. or vice versa.

so whats the big deal? you guys want more nerfs? they will probably come, i mean hey, 4.3 hasnt hit yet. even if they dont nerf FL any more, to get more people thru it, 4.3 will bring 378 gear to a lot of people that need it, making FL easier!

i dunno. im on a VERY low progression server. very very low. pre-nerf, we had around 20-25 guilds beat reg shannox. tons of guilds have broken up over this. the nerf was welcome, right now my guild has 3 FL grps at 6/7 reg. another nerf, or more 378s from heroics or whatever would help. thankfully, our low progression (worldwide) is still (sadly) pretty high for our realm.
I'd probably be less inclined to level alts if playing my main wasn't so boring.
90 Draenei Warrior
RUG
12120
I would add that the reason for raiding issues is that the development team adds new mechanics and increases the complexity of encounters the raiding "population" is not evolving at the same rate. If all guilds stayed together for 5 and 6 years then it wouldn't matter. The fact is that several members of my current guild have limited raiding experience. They have to learn 'raiding' from scratch.

In Vanilla WOW 99% of the raiding population had about the same raiding experiences. Today I would say there is much greater variation. That's what makes raiding so frustrating to the majority of guilds. An applicant may have great gear from valor points but have limited actual experience in raid combat and mechanics.

Professional sports has the same problem as older players retire and new players come up from college but thats the same for every team.If these teams played some simulated "great" team they would probably struggle. Perhaps the new lower tier raiding will help.
Firstly a lot of i think are not literate. the post they put up may not be accurate all the way. BUT does ne one realize it says heroic kills not regs. Another person treselle posted about same topic and it got locked and same thing there no one seems to realize the stat post for the most part is heroic kills not normals. id like address treselle if she does read this konw this u kept saying in ur post normal kills the 2.2 % is stated as heroic rag learn to read before i rage.
69 Night Elf Hunter
8210
Well idk about rest of the population but less than one percent of my server has completed firelands regular, and nobody has completed it on heroic. So for Dalvengyr that 1percent stat is actually padding our achievements a bit. It didn't used to be this bad.
10/13/2011 04:47 PMPosted by Normie
I'd probably be less inclined to level alts if playing my main wasn't so boring.

I'd be less inclined to be spending all my play time on the PTR if playing my main AND leveling alts wasn't so boring.


I'm getting to that point now too...I'm like a car that's out of gas and running on fumes at this point. The fumes being the future updates promised for this game and short glimpses of expansion theorycrafting.
Community Manager
I would add that the reason for raiding issues is that the development team adds new mechanics and increases the complexity of encounters the raiding "population" is not evolving at the same rate. If all guilds stayed together for 5 and 6 years then it wouldn't matter. The fact is that several members of my current guild have limited raiding experience. They have to learn 'raiding' from scratch.

In Vanilla WOW 99% of the raiding population had about the same raiding experiences. Today I would say there is much greater variation. That's what makes raiding so frustrating to the majority of guilds. An applicant may have great gear from valor points but have limited actual experience in raid combat and mechanics.

Professional sports has the same problem as older players retire and new players come up from college but thats the same for every team.If these teams played some simulated "great" team they would probably struggle. Perhaps the new lower tier raiding will help.


You're spot on, and while we were coming to some of those same realizations not too long ago, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your outlook) it's not something we realized in time for Dragon Soul. But we do plan to act on those realizations before too long.
85 Human Rogue
9885
This game has lost it's magic.
69 Night Elf Hunter
8210
10/13/2011 04:48 PMPosted by Pythogoran
Well idk about rest of the population but less than one percent of my server has completed firelands regular, and nobody has completed it on heroic. So for Dalvengyr that 1percent stat is actually padding our achievements a bit. It didn't used to be this bad.


The biggest issue is that blizzard needs to admit they are losing players and start consolidating servers in order to increase populations accross the board.


There are some servers where they have 1 guild capable of raiding on either faction. To me that is not the players fault its the lack of options they have on their server due to tremendous population decreases.


I agree, we have gone from 30-40 25man guilds to one, and less than 20 10mans that have even cleared one boss in firelands. I get my stats from Wow guild rankings. I have followed Dalvengyrs ever since I've been raiding, even now the 2nd guild isn't even logging on to raid any more. I haven't checked the others. I'm fortunate to have a guild with great people, or I woulda quit long long ago.
90 Night Elf Hunter
14905
10/13/2011 04:43 PMPosted by Normie
Blizzard has made things easier, but at the same time isn't really going out of their way to teach players how to play their class.

Blizzard will not design quests or other solo content to teach people how to play. It will simply never happen.

(1) It's not possible.

(2) It's not desirable.

Do I have to explain why these are true?


It's more 2 than 1. The Death Knight starting zone is filled with quests that show you how to play a Death Knight and their trainers actually talk about some of the abilities you have as a blood, frost, or unholy dk.
85 Tauren Paladin
7685


You're spot on, and while we were coming to some of those same realizations not too long ago, unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your outlook) it's not something we realized in time for Dragon Soul. But we do plan to act on those realizations before too long.


and your basing this claim on?

Their opinion of their customer's intelligence. I see the opposite happening with the players, that we're adapting as quickly as the changes are made.
90 Human Paladin
6565
10/13/2011 04:31 PMPosted by Bashiok
Numbers don't win us anything. They don't win you anything. Conversations are worth having - ones based on experiences and feelings. We know what the numbers say, but they don't mean anything if you are still unhappy with your enjoyment of the game and your perception of its direction


I'm glad you said this. Truly I am.
But as they say...the proof is in the pudding. If enough people are saying the same things, and feeling the same way....will it matter in the design?
Only you guys know what the numbers are and if what people are saying, is what the numbers confirm.
Judging by the sustained design philosophy of, Hard for the real players...nerfed later for "the rest", I guess you guys see a real advantage in that strategy.
I honestly don't.
I think it creates a larger divide among the player base...and fosters more of an "Us VS Them" mentality. How many "Hardcore VS Casuals" or "Bads" threads do we see?
I think it creates a feeling of inadequacy in many players and a false sense of inflated worth to others.
To me personally, it fostered the thought of..Why bother? I'm not an elite player. Never have been...never will be. I'm fine with that. But your company has made it plainly obvious that my enjoyment...or even skill level is irrelevant if I'm not out there in the first day clearing content. So I threw my towel in this expansion. If you don't care, then I don't care.
The entire feeling I've had this expansion...is that it's not for me or my type of player. Clearly some have agreed, as sub numbers have dropped.
A simple design of accessible normal modes, and hard modes should be enough to satisfy everyone. I don't see why the LFR difficulty should be needed if normals were truly accessible content.

Meaningful alternative content for non-raiders isn't Archeology or Dailies. Time consuming? Certainly. Engaging? Hardly. And the Dark Moon Faire looks no different. A few days a month to grind yet more tokens, in yet more gated content...is not satisfying. Again...it is a time filler, but it certainly lacks in the meat and potatoes department.

Grinding old content for mog gear is now also considered alternative end game content? Really? You can't possibly be serious. But it does go along with my thought that BOE green drops have been nerfed to make finding that right piece a longer task. Just something I have noticed, and others have agreed with me. But...if that is not the case..then perhaps it is just a feeling.



90 Human Warrior
11640
I used to raid, hardcore, but I don't anymore, for a variety of reasons, primarily boredom and lack of time. The raids feel artificially difficult, and to be honest, farming a low level 5 man instance for a piece of transmog gear is much more fun for me than current content. I don't ever, ever want to heal with an alt again after the changes to healing in Cata.

I just wish I could get back old quest rewards, particularly from Burning Crusade content, or better yet - a full quest reset so I could do all of them again, like I could with vanilla stuff.

Eh.

I wish I could make some money the way I used to - having a bunch of transmute spec'd alchemists making epic gems so I could cut/sell them. Unfortunately, "raid or die" now extends to professions, so screw it. I'll probably go back to engineering, for the toys.

Meh.

If my mechanics of my warrior change again because the developers want to keep things "fresh and new" I'm gonna quit for good (I got back just over a month ago after an 8 month break). Changing everything I know about my class doesn't make it fresh and new- it makes it a !@#$ing hassle. I used to like healing on alts before everything changed. Now it's just a huge hassle as well.

Why does everything about the game that seemed fun now seem like a pain in the %^-? If I don't raid, I'm screwed. Making a raid finder so I can group with 24 other nimrods doesn't sound like fun - it sounds like a nightmare.

Blah. :P
90 Human Warrior
16790
10/13/2011 04:45 PMPosted by Eduard
Perhaps the new lower tier raiding will help.


I doubt it.

You saw the same thing with Cata Heroics.
And again with T11 raids.
And again with T12 raids.

Cata Heroics at launch were fine, people needed to execute their classes properly, or they would wipe. There was kiting, CC, triage healing, tank movement, the works.

This did an adequate job of preparing people for the T11 Raids, at least the first 4 bosses.

But people would have none of that, and cried that it was too hard, and they couldn't progress into raiding. So Blizzard nerfed the Heroics. And all those players ran their face into a brick wall called T11 raids, because the Heroics were nerfed to the point where you could just ignore the mechanics and zerg the bosses down.

So then those people took to the forums again, and cried "T11 is too hard", and rather than helping them learn how to do the content, Blizzard just handed out easier gear through ZA/ZG and told them to try again.

Then T11 got nerfed, and thankfully, Blizzard at least had the compassion to wait until a new raid was out, and left the Hard Modes alone. Then, the mediocre players blew through the zergable T11 raids, which no longer required any coordination other than boss tunneling and "gogogo", and ran into FL.

Now FL is nerfed, and H FL is nerfed. There is no progression anymore, it's literally zergzergzerg until you run into H Rag, who is still really freaking hard. There's no curve, no incentive to improve, just a 391 loot pinata up into a brick wall.

tl;dr

If LFR tries to teach people the things they need to succeed in "Normal Mode", it'll fail, or get nerfed.

If LFR is undertuned as hell and just lets people zerg down bosses for loot and look at shiny environments, people will get bored and either quit or try normal mode and get destroyed, then complain.
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