1.35% of all wow players completed normal FL

90 Night Elf Druid
12745
10/13/2011 12:47 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Except for the fact that it has only been like that for the past 2 or 3 weeks.


FL 7/7 was puggable on other servers long before the nerfs hit live. Just because player skill on some servers is lacking, like it is on Scarlet Crusade and other low progression servers, doesn't mean that the content is not puggable without nerfs as a whole.


This is where personal experience can really bog down the discussion. I'm sure there have been some servers where FL pre-nerf was being pugged, but that is not as commonly occurring as to it being puggable post-nerf.

Also, I would wonder if those pugs were truely the type of pugs we're seeing now and saw in WotLK? or are they pugs with all geared characters/alts from other raiding guilds.
90 Orc Shaman
18715
10/13/2011 12:37 PMPosted by Dincinerator
It wasn't an insult, it was an opinion.


Whatever. You apparently take it as an insult when you're called a baddie, and I imagine the douchebags (yes, I think calling people a baddie is a douchebag thing to do) who call you that would equally justify their insults as mere opinions.

/hug
Edited by Mnevis on 10/13/2011 1:24 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
12745
I don't trust these numbers, but I do believe that only a small disproportional number of characters raid.

Why make raids at all if only 5-10% of WoW gets to play them?


There's no endgame content everyone participates in. Endgame is, by definition, a niche game.


Arthas being slayed by 25% of the player population is a pretty solid participation number. I'm just unsure why Blizzard decided to take that raiding philosophy and scrap it?
78 Undead Warrior
10055
Bull, I did not say mechanics should be ignored. You're putting words in my mouth.

Over-tuned means exactly what I said. It means that the punishment for failing to meet a mechanic is too punishing for what constitutes a NORMAL mode raid. Save that "be perfect or die" crap for hard modes where they belong. T11 fights had it. Firelands has it. And I'll lay money down that says Dragon Soul will have it too.


Jeez no need to be so hostile. Here's an example. When T11 was current, you couldn't tunnelvision during Theralion and fail to notice the arrow over your head saying you were about to get meteored. You'd almost certainly die if you didn't stack on someone, so you had to split your focus between looking out for the meteor, dps/healing, moving out of shadow, not standing near anyone with engulfing, and being aware of when Valiona was gonna swoop down. That's all kinda hard, and missing a meteor meant death.

What I'm getting at is if they tune easy mode Demon Soul roughly like T11 is now, meteors are so non-lethal that ignoring them is the ideal strat. No one's going to learn to monitor their debuffs if the penalty for ignoring it is insignificant. There may have been a middle ground for T11, but heroics didn't even demand perfection. A tick of Arcane Storm going off in normal was fairly, on Heroic it was serious but not necessarily a wipe. Missing an interrupt on normal Omnomnitron didn't 1shot anyone.

If our goal and Blizzard's goal here is to get more people into, or back into raiding, I'd like to know that someone with full-clear raidfinder experience can watch out for something. It's often quite important.


They can make the mechanic punishing without making it a pass/fail or ignorable...it's a sliding scale, not a true/false button.

To use your example (a good example too), why did the meteor have to do literally lethal damage? Why couldn't it be programmed to do 75k life + painful dot. That's a significant chunk but wouldn't flat out kill someone unless they were already injured significantly. It'll certainly stress the healers out yet still is recoverable. Make it kill you on heroic...no one would complain.

Magmaw is another good example from that era...why did his mangle have to kill the tank should 2 people not properly handle chaining his head down? He already applied the nasty armor debuff...he already did pretty massive damage to said tank during the mangle...and failing to spike the head down means your healers don't get that 20-30 seconds of recover time AND your raid missed out on free double damage. The argument of "it was easy to handle so who cares" is irrelevant...the simple fact you stuffed up = you die IS EXACTLY what I'm saying about "over-tuned". Pretty much every boss in t11 had super harsh mechanics (halfus and maloriak are the only 2 noteworthy exceptions off the top of my head...chim too considering he's just a pure gimmick fight as is).

I'm not advocating that any mouth breather go in and kill deathwing with no problems. What I am saying is the bar for normals is set too high pre nerf content. LFR will likely be a flop unless they take the 10 man bosses for Dragon Soul...nerf them, and then place them in the 25 man LFR mode...if they're sightly easy 25 man raid bosses, the sheer lack of coordination of pugs combined with the lack of experience with the fights will ensure they're wipes (exception will be the 20-24 guildies using the tool to get experience with the fights on easier modes before doing it on normal).
90 Night Elf Druid
12745
10/13/2011 01:11 PMPosted by Seniorjones
I've killed Rag on this character. I have nine other level 85s that I don't raid with. I'm skewing the numbers. Rawr!


I like your name.
85 Night Elf Priest
5550
Poor Gold sellers haven't completed Firelands...
Sounds like it is working as intended.

Did Blizz ever really believe that 80% of all players would finish FL?

I don't think so.

I have yet to even step into Firelands on any of my characters. I just do not find it at all interesting.

My main focus is leveling.

90 Blood Elf Paladin
15955

Bull, I did not say mechanics should be ignored. You're putting words in my mouth.

Over-tuned means exactly what I said. It means that the punishment for failing to meet a mechanic is too punishing for what constitutes a NORMAL mode raid. Save that "be perfect or die" crap for hard modes where they belong. T11 fights had it. Firelands has it. And I'll lay money down that says Dragon Soul will have it too.

If you think the mechanics of normal mode Firelands were overtuned, you must think the troll heroics are overtuned.
Venoxis? Stand in poison: you die.
Mandokir? Stand in his aoe attack: you die.
Kilnara? Slightly more forgiveable in that it is possible to survive while butchering mechanics, but god help your healer.
Zanzil? Don't get the poison debuff: you die. Get hit by the big add: you die.
Jin'do? Once again, you don't have to be perfect, but missing more than one slam will likely wipe your group. Taking more than one tick of his lightning will likely kill you.
Akil'zon? Get hit by the lightning: you die.
Nalorakk? Taking consecutive hits won't kill you if you are topped off (which isn't hard to do), so it is decently forgiving.
Jan'alai? Get hit by the fire explosion: almost certainly an instant kill. Stand in the fire line: almost certainly going to cause a wipe or a death.
Halazzi? A joke, if you execute the simple mechanics. Try it without standing on the healing pads and killing the lightning totems and see if failing the mechanics is forgivable.
Malacrass? I don't think I've ever wiped on him while tanking and maybe only once while healing on my Priest. However, if you stand in stuff and don't interrupt, the fight gets a lot harder than it needs to be.
Dakaara? The price for not executing the mechanics on this fight ranges from one-shot (Lynx needing to be taunted), to unhealable damage.

Not executing mechanics should be punishing, whatever the content level, else, what is the point of the mechanics?
90 Dwarf Paladin
13855
10/13/2011 12:16 PMPosted by Mnevis
WoWprogress can not come from the armory as it gives 10/25 man data for T11 and T12 which is not on the armory, only a WoL log shows that.

And yet it does.

If 25 (or 22 or 19 or whatever) all get the firelands achievement together, WoWProgress makes the quite reasonable assumption that those 25 people were in a 25man raid. Same for 10 people. You also have the ability to register as guild administrator and set the size of raid you complete. Programmers will not be stumped long by something as trivial as combined achievements.

Do you know about a kill that <Perdition> of Quel'dori just got?
http://www.wowprogress.com/update_progress/us/quel-dorei/Perdition
Enter 5 participating character names and the site will get right on checking their armories.
Logs have nothing whatsoever to do with it.


Again, this is not true.

There is no distinction between 10 and 25s in the in game stats. If every player had completed rag on 10 man, and then got the 25 man nothing new would show up.

My guild is 1/7 through 25 man in FL, the one and only place this shows up publicly is in our WoL log.

The perdition raid, for example, if it was made up of two guilds, 5 players each, then both could claim it in wowprogress.

I am fairly sure that wowprogress does not rely on players manually entering every single kill (although I am not 100% certain).
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10165


There's no endgame content everyone participates in. Endgame is, by definition, a niche game.


Arthas being slayed by 25% of the player population is a pretty solid participation number. I'm just unsure why Blizzard decided to take that raiding philosophy and scrap it?


Those 25% had a year to do it in. It's been just over three months.
1 Tauren Shaman
0
I have 7 lvl 85s and none of which have done any end game content. normals dungeons to 25 man raids
90 Night Elf Druid
12745



Arthas being slayed by 25% of the player population is a pretty solid participation number. I'm just unsure why Blizzard decided to take that raiding philosophy and scrap it?


Those 25% had a year to do it in. It's been just over three months.


ICC was out 6 months actually. But even veering away from ICC, Ulduar was the "least" raided instance in ICC but it still had 12% WoW Participation which is much higher than Firelands and any other Cataclysm Raid (Pre-nerfs).
Edited by Tinjai on 10/13/2011 1:54 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10165


Those 25% had a year to do it in. It's been just over three months.


ICC was out 6 months actually. But even veering away from ICC, Ulduar was the "least" raided instance in ICC but it still had 12% WoW Participation which is much higher than Firelands and any other Cataclysm Raid (Pre-nerfs).


No, ICC was out for a year, unless you think people stopped raiding it when Ruby Sanctum came out.
90 Undead Warlock
9255


Arthas being slayed by 25% of the player population is a pretty solid participation number. I'm just unsure why Blizzard decided to take that raiding philosophy and scrap it?


Those 25% had a year to do it in. It's been just over three months.


And in 2 months, No one will do FLs again. Outdated content is outdated.

The point is glaringly obvious. If the content isn't made available to the majority to enjoy, then the majority has no reason to stick around.

The problem lies in the fact that back in LK days, as long as you had your T9 set with 245 offset pieces, people gave you a 'chance' to do ICC in the pugs.

Having that starter set showed that you were willing to grind out the gear so you could get started.

Today? Today, they expect you to have the achieve 'and' have obscene ilvls to do 'outdated' content.

That's my server. No, I will not pay extra for a transfer to a better server. I like my server and I like my friends there.
90 Dwarf Paladin
13855


Those 25% had a year to do it in. It's been just over three months.


ICC was out 6 months actually. But even veering away from ICC, Ulduar was the "least" raided instance in ICC but it still had 12% WoW Participation which is much higher than Firelands and any other Cataclysm Raid (Pre-nerfs).


ICC launched november or december of 2009, caty launched november 2010. That is a year for ICC.

And where are you getting the participation numbers, I didn't know we had access to them.
90 Blood Elf Hunter
11430
I dont get it. So hardmode is hard and only a small percentage of raiders have it on farm. People act like this is new, Hi im SWP have we met?

Talk about not a lot of raiders clearing that.

Oh and lets not forget the destroyer of guilds Naxx!
Edited by Toxarís on 10/13/2011 1:59 PM PDT
Community Manager
As others have pointed out, your 1.35% is just wrong due to the stats MMO is stating, but whatever, we’re not going to reveal any of our internal numbers to show how wrong you are, or discount the numbers posted on MMO for that matter. I will say they’re likely as accurate as they can be. Meaning, they’re wrong, but at no fault of theirs simply due to the data they have available to them. While we do have data we pull and review very regularly, it’s not always a true measure of success or failure without considering the context.

We try and make content for all of our players. It’s both a blessing and a curse that the WoW player base is as large and diverse as it is. “Hardcore” players for example tend to dramatically underestimate the skill gap between themselves and the vast majority of other players. A lot of games handle this problem through multiple difficulty settings. That is harder to do in a game as content rich as World of Warcraft, but it is something we’re looking at more and more with new features like Raid Finder essentially adding a more accessible setting.

But even with a system (we believe) as awesome as the Raid Finder, there are no simple solutions.

Players are motivated to raid (and do any content for that matter) for a lot of different reasons. A sizeable number of players are satisfied with seeing most of the game content once. If they kill the dragon or slay the Lich King, they (appropriately) feel like they have won the game. That view is pretty heretical to the traditional raider, who is used to working for weeks to defeat a boss and then spending the next few weeks or months farming that boss so that their group has a leg up for the next tier of content. Other players can be motivated by gear, and once they accrue their rewards they are done with the content. Others are motivated by the challenge, and if things are too easy, they lose interest. These players also tend to assume that everyone shares their mindset and they will be happy to wipe on a fight over and over and over with hopes of improving. In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they’re done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that’s not really our design goal. Raids represent an enormous commitment of developer resources. In the same way that we would never make 20 new Arenas just for Gladiator-level players, we don’t want to develop a raid that only 2% of our raiders can see. We will make sure that there are challenging encounters for players who enjoy that sort of thing (as many of us professional game developers do), but then our goal will be to, over time, broaden the potential audience by bringing the content difficulty down. We think the shock with Firelands for some players was that the nerfs were so severe instead of gradual. For the 4.3 Dragon Soul raid we plan on gradually nerfing it over time, sort of like we did with Icecrown Citadel, except by nerfing the content instead of buffing the players.

There is another portion of players that are just not interested in raiding no matter how accessible it is, and that’s fine too, but we do keep track of how player behavior in the past may match player behavior currently or even in the future as we make these choices. Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That’s not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.
Edited by Bashiok on 10/13/2011 2:24 PM PDT
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