1.35% of all wow players completed normal FL

2 Dwarf Shaman
0
Know what I've taken from this thread?

The chief argument against the numbers in question states that it counts characters versus accounts. This is true, of course, and it greatly skews the numbers. The problem I see with this claim is that it also demonstrates that people aren't gearing up their alts like they did in Wrath and taking them into current content.

I would say that this, in itself, is a pretty decisive change.


Its even worse than that. the people that are running it ARE gearing up their alt, the vast majority are not gearing up mains OR alts
78 Undead Warrior
10055

Bull, I did not say mechanics should be ignored. You're putting words in my mouth.

Over-tuned means exactly what I said. It means that the punishment for failing to meet a mechanic is too punishing for what constitutes a NORMAL mode raid. Save that "be perfect or die" crap for hard modes where they belong. T11 fights had it. Firelands has it. And I'll lay money down that says Dragon Soul will have it too.

If you think the mechanics of normal mode Firelands were overtuned, you must think the troll heroics are overtuned.
Venoxis? Stand in poison: you die.
Mandokir? Stand in his aoe attack: you die.
Kilnara? Slightly more forgiveable in that it is possible to survive while butchering mechanics, but god help your healer.
Zanzil? Don't get the poison debuff: you die. Get hit by the big add: you die.
Jin'do? Once again, you don't have to be perfect, but missing more than one slam will likely wipe your group. Taking more than one tick of his lightning will likely kill you.
Akil'zon? Get hit by the lightning: you die.
Nalorakk? Taking consecutive hits won't kill you if you are topped off (which isn't hard to do), so it is decently forgiving.
Jan'alai? Get hit by the fire explosion: almost certainly an instant kill. Stand in the fire line: almost certainly going to cause a wipe or a death.
Halazzi? A joke, if you execute the simple mechanics. Try it without standing on the healing pads and killing the lightning totems and see if failing the mechanics is forgivable.
Malacrass? I don't think I've ever wiped on him while tanking and maybe only once while healing on my Priest. However, if you stand in stuff and don't interrupt, the fight gets a lot harder than it needs to be.
Dakaara? The price for not executing the mechanics on this fight ranges from one-shot (Lynx needing to be taunted), to unhealable damage.

Not executing mechanics should be punishing, whatever the content level, else, what is the point of the mechanics?


Le sigh...yet another person putting words in my mouth.

I never said ZG/ZA mechanics needed to be nerfed and they CERTAINLY aren't on the level of a raid boss.

If you "stand in the bad" you DESERVE to die. The difference is the crap that kills you in ZA/ZG do NOT instantly kill you (not even the dragonhawk's explosion). Most every boss in t11 had mechanics that DID kill you if you failed it (and again, I noted that halfus and maloriak were the exceptions I thought of on top of my head). THAT is the difference. It wasn't a matter of "get out of the bad" it was a matter of "do this right 100% of the time no matter what or you die"...that level of perfection DESERVES to be in a heroic raid...NOT a normal. The only boss in a heroic who currently instantly kills you is mandokir (and that's kind of the fight itself).

I did NOT say that you should be able to go in and ignore mechanics and win. I simply said you shouldn't die JUST because you messed them up once. It should HURT to mess up...NOT ruin a perfectly good attempt because your healer got tunnel vision and ate a meteor...or 1 of your DPSers forgot to get on magmaw's head and your tank got nom nom'd. PUNISH the raid/player for messing up by all means...make too many mistakes and die. Not a hard concept.
Community Manager
10/13/2011 02:03 PMPosted by Marathel
I do hope the Darkmoon Faire provides enjoyment Bashiok! I'm looking for new things to do while I'm not raiding for sadly other parts of the game just doesn't do that anymore=/.


Yeah, we need to offer a lot of different kinds of content so that non-raiders still have things to do, or even for raiders to do on off nights. The Molten Front dailies were really popular for several weeks, but like all content, players eventually move on. We hope the DMF and even Transmog will provide some non-raid focused activities in 4.3, but beyond that we have plans to do a lot more. And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Edited by Bashiok on 10/13/2011 4:20 PM PDT
14 Blood Elf Mage
0
Why was firelands heroic nerfed but not the old T11 heorics just the normals? It's cause bosses like sinestar have BETTER loot then in firelands?
2 Dwarf Shaman
0
10/13/2011 02:32 PMPosted by Bashiok
I do hope the Darkmoon Faire provides enjoyment Bashiok! I'm looking for new things to do while I'm not raiding for sadly other parts of the game just doesn't do that anymore=/.


Yeah, we need to offer lot of different kinds of content so that non-raiders still have things to do, or even for raiders to do on off nights. The Molten Front dailies were really popular for several weeks, but like all content, players eventually move on. We hope the DMF and even Transmog will provide some non-raid focused activities in 4.3, but beyond that we have plans to do a lot more. And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


I hate to sound trite, but you brought up the MF dailies, which was an obvious smack in the face to none raiders. 29 days for 365 loot?
60 Draenei Death Knight
0
10/13/2011 02:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they’re done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that’s not really our design goal.


This thinking really irks me. Rather than expanding end game content outside of raids to give these people something else worth doing, you're trying to shoehorn them into raiding, something they don't really enjoy, at the risk of alienating other portions of your player base. Trying to please everybody ends with everyone unhappy.

It's a disturbing trend I've noticed with you since Warcraft 3, Blizzard. You've become meek. Too hesitant to break away from the mold. You refuse to deviate from Everquest's raid endgame model. You didn't do anything new or interesting with Starcraft 2, either; it's a 3d version of the game I bought in 1998. You keep this up, and eventually you'll be playing Yahoo to some other developer's Google.
Edited by Callofbooty on 10/13/2011 2:39 PM PDT
100 Undead Mage
15055
10/13/2011 02:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
As others have pointed out, your 1.35% is just wrong due to the stats MMO is stating, but whatever, we’re not going to reveal any of our internal numbers to show how wrong you are, or discount the numbers posted on MMO for that matter. I will say they’re likely as accurate as they can be. Meaning, they’re wrong, but at no fault of theirs simply due to the data they have available to them. While we do have data we pull and review very regularly, it’s not always a true measure of success or failure without considering the context.


To be fair, the graphs are about how the Firelands nerfs allowed more players to see the content, not how many people are able to clear Firelands. I can't help that people can't read!
90 Human Rogue
8265
On the subject of multiple difficulty settings...
Can we get that with the Raid finders?

The developers tend to underestimate the willingness of many skilled players of do the organizational work to put together a balanced raid. Speaking as a former raider and multi year vet, encounter difficulty has little to do me raiding so little this expansion. I'd just rather not play wow than go through the hassle of putting together a pug raid or joining a regularly scheduled raid. Don't like the extra time sensitive scheduling in this point of my life, where I didn't mind it all in my school days where I had so much free time.

I fully accept the higher failure rate of a normal mode and heroic mode pug raid. That way I can attempt the content I wish on the difficulty setting that I want to run it.

Recognize the decline for what it is. A lack of interest in the "log on at x time, on y char, to clear raids content from time a to b" model.
90 Dwarf Paladin
13855

But I do have a worry about LFR, if you don't want it becoming a boot fest or wipe fest then it has to be easy, but if it is easy then people "complete" the game too easily. I would suspect that many who don't raid find raid thing of sometimes spending a week or more wiping on the same boss as really off putting, balancing keeping them happy with their not being able to one shot the place or boot anyone without the HM DS raid ach is going to be tough. Unless of course you just gate every few bosses...


Well, look at it this way.

For the people it's targetting, their endgame currently is basically zg/za. They are adding easy mode raids for those people. This is more for them to do, not less which could keep them interested in the game more.

If you're currently doing organized raiding content (normal or heroic) than LFR will likely have limited utility for your main, but you may enjoy it on your alt. I can't think of many circumstances where it would reduce subs, since it is fundamentally giving people more things to do, not less.

The only case I can think of where this might not be the case is those straddling normal mode raiding and not, where maybe pre-nerf they got shannox down or maybe shannox and beth down in normal modes. Those players might exclusively raid in LFR, and may become bored quicker because they run out of things to do quicker, but I don't think that'll be the vast majority of players.


The point I am trying to make is how easy it will have to be to keep people happy. My guess is they will have to gate it and have 4 two boss wings, opening 1 every two or three weeks (or more).

In the blue post they talk about the people who just want to see the game. If they can one shot LFR are they sticking around for the next few months wiping on the same bosses in normal mode?

And hope many "casual" players who might have become hooked on raiding will never bother to try it because they think they have finished the game in LFR?

These are genuine concerns 1) for the future of normal and hm raiding, 2) for raid guilds, 3) for the life of the game.

Man I know we rage at the devs a lot on here, but you couldnt pay me to do that job, I would be pulling my hair out, bald in a week. And I have a lovely mane wouldnt want to lose it lol. Now people actually read what he said, maybe you will understand.


I'd do it. They deal with a tiny amount of whining on the forums, which they filter through CMs, and they make a crap ton of money.

Seriously. I've heard what the writers make and I was shocked. I can only imagine what the devs make.

Anyway, despite the fact that I'm a random nobody I'd like to add my perspective on this.

I raided in vanilla constantly. In TBC I raided again, but took a long break around the time SSC came out. I came back during the period of BT and started raiding again. In WoTLK I raided from the start, burned out around when Ulduar came out, then came back for the first part of ICC. I burned out again when the last door to the LK finally opened because I had already been raiding the dungeon for a while and I saw the writing on the wall that ICC was going to be it until the next expansion came out. I was not wrong in that judgment.

In cata I leveled up to 85 with the intention of getting back into raiding immediately. I raided for maybe 3 months of the first tier content and after that I was just done. I've noticed that my raiding breaks have gotten longer and longer as time has gone on. I do not think it has anything to do with the content itself. I think it has to do with how I've changed as a person and how my life has changed.

When I was in college during vanilla, I was pumped to do vanilla content 4 nights a week. 4 hours? Not a big deal. I liked my guild, we had fun, it was good times.

As I continued with the raiding it started to grate on me as the expansions wore on and on. I graduated from college, found work, started getting out more, etc. The guilds came and went. Most imploded in on themselves so it was a constant cycle of having to go through the application process to find somewhere else to go. I'd have to go back through the crap of getting to know like 20 people I liked and 2 or 3 people that I was glad I never had to meet IRL.

At this point when I think of raiding I groan inwardly. I do not want to spend 2 extra hours of my day farming mats for a raid. I do not want to spend 3-4 hours a night with people I probably don't like to die repeatedly to a boss mechanic that 2 imbeciles cannot understand. I am tired from 8 hoursof work, an hour of commuting, and I want to be in bed by 10pm to read/play my DS and then go to bed so I can wake up and work again the next day. The period I have in between work and bed is when I do my me time things like browse these forums, make youtubes, draw, write, go to other websites, and play my alts. Weekends I spend cleaning, hiking with my dog, with my family, or whatever else.

I was excited about the changes to 10man raids because I figured I could finally find a small group of people with the same mentality as me who were decently skilled so we could see content on our off hours. Yeah, no, the first tier of raiding in this expansion utterly DESTROYED that notion. Wow. It was the same thing. Farming for mats, spending 3-4 hours hitting our heads against brick walls (heroic modes.) and dealing with people who would start whining at each other as things went on. So not only did I go to bed tired, I went to bed angry as well.

At this point casual raiding on my server is pretty much dead, because I think a lot of people are at the point I'm at. I think on the whole I am not the type of person to be a raider anymore. It hurts my pride to not be the best and see the content, but that's just how it is for me. It's a phase of my life that I think I've outgrown, and I'm absolutely too tired to go through the process of being recruited into a group/guild, dealing with the gearing, dealing with the wiping...dealing with the PEOPLE again. I'm done. I'll probably use the LFR feature with some friends, but I've already accepted that it's going to be worse than random dungeons with even more obnoxious people. But what else can I do? Fish and watch top guilds down the content on youtube, that's really about as much time as I want to put into it.

So w/e, I'm a raider gone casual and that's my story. At this point I wish WoW had more content for me to deal with since running the same heroics 3294024092 times is lame, and I struggle to find reasons to log in now outside of leveling a bajillionth alt character. But I find things to do...somehow...by virtue of my own desire to, I don't even know, get some kind of return out of my investment of playtime.
85 Blood Elf Priest
6105

Its even worse than that. the people that are running it ARE gearing up their alt, the vast majority are not gearing up mains OR alts


Until recently, I ignored my druid. However, I had a lot of chars in wrath that I didn't gear up either. I had 9 max level chars in wrath, and I have 4 in this expansion. Possibly more will be added before this expansion comes to a close, but who knows.

It's ironic that they spent so much time on the leveling experience, but I found leveling much more enjoyable in wrath.
90 Orc Shaman
18715
I imagine a far higher percentage of raiders (those people who've killed Firelands bosses) completed the Molten Front dailies than the percentage of the total population of characters this thread gets its title percentage from.

It was just as much a pain for us as anyone, only we replaced the stuff sooner (except for Moonwell Chalice which is still used by lots of casters).
5 Undead Hunter
0
Dear wonderful OP, people from the internet forums, and gnomes.

1. The sample was 2.7M US LVL 85 characters, not 10M (I'm going to assume that's how you got your 1.35%)

2. Characters, not players, a crapton of those characters are non raiding alts, that's why we don't do silly stats like the one you tried to complain about.

3. I'm sorry Bashiok. ><

Boubouille, the guy who occasionally runs MMO-Champion.
Edited by Boubouille on 10/13/2011 2:40 PM PDT
90 Dwarf Priest
14235
10/13/2011 02:32 PMPosted by Bashiok
I do hope the Darkmoon Faire provides enjoyment Bashiok! I'm looking for new things to do while I'm not raiding for sadly other parts of the game just doesn't do that anymore=/.


Yeah, we need to offer lot of different kinds of content so that non-raiders still have things to do, or even for raiders to do on off nights. The Molten Front dailies were really popular for several weeks, but like all content, players eventually move on. We hope the DMF and even Transmog will provide some non-raid focused activities in 4.3, but beyond that we have plans to do a lot more. And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


I'm really looking forward to Darkmoon Faire. It was such a great idea that I don't think was realized. Especially at higher levels, where the only purpose of it is to turn in your decks once you got them.

A Darkmoon Faire zone sounds like it could be exciting especially with some of the new features in WoW. Games within a game /win. I'm hoping it's something that will make me want to come everytime it's going on.
100 Draenei Mage
18780
For the 4.3 Dragon Soul raid we plan on gradually nerfing it over time, sort of like we did with Icecrown Citadel, except by nerfing the content instead of buffing the players.

There is another portion of players that are just not interested in raiding no matter how accessible it is, and that’s fine too, but we do keep track of how player behavior in the past may match player behavior currently or even in the future as we make these choices. Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That’s not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.


You just said that your goal was to get players downing Deathwing, and there are two modes where that is clearly possible for the mass audience (LFR and Normal).

So with that in mind, why do you feel that you still need to plan on making an across the board (albeit gradual) nerf of the content before it's even out, and during its lifespan, when you're developing three separate difficulty modes for the raid? I understand wanting to do it with cockblock bosses or ones that are supremely difficult. But this path is a major turn off for the raiders in the range below the top 250 to about ~1000.

I just do not understand your rationale behind it.
Edited by Ryegeleye on 10/13/2011 2:42 PM PDT
90 Dwarf Paladin
13855
10/13/2011 02:32 PMPosted by Bashiok
I do hope the Darkmoon Faire provides enjoyment Bashiok! I'm looking for new things to do while I'm not raiding for sadly other parts of the game just doesn't do that anymore=/.


Yeah, we need to offer lot of different kinds of content so that non-raiders still have things to do, or even for raiders to do on off nights. The Molten Front dailies were really popular for several weeks, but like all content, players eventually move on. We hope the DMF and even Transmog will provide some non-raid focused activities in 4.3, but beyond that we have plans to do a lot more. And when you see them you'll be all like :O and we'll be all like :D and then people on the forums will still be all like(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


lol, is this a subtle acknowledgement that there were a few issues with the blizzard management forgetting that WoW is an MMORPG, and so meant to be played over the whole content patch by as many people as possible.

And if so could you guys subtly change the LFR and VP loot to i397 and then the normal loot (and 1 or 2 VP pieces) to i410, and the heroic gear to i423 to try to encourage as much repeated gameplay as possible. And whilst doing that rather than just 10 VP items, if they are below raid level stick in a whole bunch more so non raiders have a ton of rewards to collect, but importantly they are rewards that don't put people off repeated raiding.
85 Blood Elf Priest
6105

In the blue post they talk about the people who just want to see the game. If they can one shot LFR are they sticking around for the next few months wiping on the same bosses in normal mode?


The expectation is likely that they stick around for gear reasons. I'm not sure how well that works out in the last tier of the expansion, but we'll see. I wouldn't expect that people (as a general rule) progress to normal mode raids after LFR, although certainly some might if they decide they enjoy that sort of content and would like to pursue it in a more structured and challenging fashion.

I expect it to be quite trivial though. It sort of has to be so, if you're going to appeal to a large player base. ZG/ZA with 25 people is what I'm thinking.
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