1.35% of all wow players completed normal FL

90 Human Paladin
6565
It's unfortunate Blizzard is still deciding to put things at one level off the hop..and then nerf it after the top tier have cleared the raids already.
It sort of sends a message that isn't terribly welcoming.
"Hey, you guys can raid too. Just wait till the big kids are done with it first. Then we'll nerf everything so you can do it too." /head pats.

UNless something has changed....Dark Moon Faire is only available a few days a month. So really..it's just like the Molten Front. Lots of gating and it take forever to get anything.
Edited by Alein on 10/13/2011 2:44 PM PDT
90 Dwarf Paladin
13855
Dear wonderful OP, people from the internet forums, and gnomes.

1. The sample was 2.7M US LVL 85 characters, not 10M (I'm going to assume that's how you got your 1.35%)

2. Characters, not players, a crapton of those characters are non raiding alts, that's why we don't do silly stats like the one you tried to complain about.

3. I'm sorry Bashiok. ><

Boubouille, the guy who occasionally runs MMO-Champion.


TY so much for kicking this all off (and the muppets who can't read, TY OP), we finally have a blue talking about repeated gameplay, with the subtlest of hints that not all has been right about caty so far.
[quote]

I had a lot of these notions and it makes me glad I only raid 8 hours a week. I obviously run with excellent raiders and thus I don't have to deal with that as much(thank goodness). It makes things tolerable and enjoyable.


Yeah, I hear stories of people in these kinds of groups and I am genuinely happy for them. The last casual group we tried to run on my server ended up dying because we couldn't get a regular set of folks to show up. I play on a server to be with my friends (that haven't quit) and it's difficult for me since most of the guilds run on west coast time and I'm on the east coast. I'm also not exactly at my prime so the top raiding guilds are out as well.

My original vanilla guild always felt like home...it was my favorite one. It's sad to see how far it's fallen...it's a 6 year old guild and the current owner is selling it on the server because the server is dead. Sigh.

I have poor luck with guilds. I've had everything from the overly lenient guildmaster to the guy who screamed at me every night. After running the gamut I'm just...tired. I give up, I guess. I don't want to do it again.

Maybe if they ever do a cross realm raiding group feature...but even then the large majority of my friends have quit the game. So for now I just...fish.
87 Human Rogue
7060
10/13/2011 02:32 PMPosted by Bashiok
We hope the DMF and even Transmog will provide some non-raid focused activities in 4.3


See, I knew the day transmog was announced that it would eventually be used as an excuse to consider old, outdated content as "something to do every week" rather than making new content.
85 Blood Elf Priest
6105


You just said that your goal was to get players downing Deathwing, and there are two modes where that is clearly possible for the mass audience (LFR and Normal).

So with that in mind, why do you feel that you still need to plan on making an across the board (albeit gradual) nerf of the content before it's even out, and during its lifespan, when you're developing three separate difficulty modes for the raid?

I just do not understand your rationale behind it.


I don't like it, but the rationale is pretty obvious.

If you nerf normal mode, then those who were targetting normals (say those who killed rag right before nerf) find normals too easy, but heroics too hard, so they lose those players if they don't nerf heroics too.

So they have a choice: a reasonable experience for those normal mode players or a reasonable experience for those who were progressing in heroics pre-nerf, and raw numbers tend to suggest what choice must be made.

More scary to me is they want deathwing to be downed in numbers similar to naxx 2.0 which suggests to me similar difficulty (at least at the end) to naxx 2.0. I hope that's mostly LFR difficulty, and they expect normal and heroic modes to be seen by less people, because if not it's not going to be a very interesting tier.
62 Night Elf Death Knight
0
It's unfortunate Blizzard is still deciding to put things at one level off the hop..and then nerf it after the top tier have cleared the raids already.
It sort of sends a message that isn't terribly welcoming.
"Hey, you guys can raid too. Just wait till the big kids are done with it first. Then we'll nerf everything so you can do it too." /head pats.

That's because a lot of you DO need the nerf in order to even see Heroic Rag.

/head pat
85 Orc Warrior
3690
Nerf heroic rag please.
85 Blood Elf Priest
6105
10/13/2011 02:49 PMPosted by Etopian
Nerf heroic rag please.


They did.

Twice.

87 Human Rogue
7060
For the 4.3 Dragon Soul raid we plan on gradually nerfing it over time, sort of like we did with Icecrown Citadel, except by nerfing the content instead of buffing the players.

There is another portion of players that are just not interested in raiding no matter how accessible it is, and that’s fine too, but we do keep track of how player behavior in the past may match player behavior currently or even in the future as we make these choices. Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That’s not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.


You just said that your goal was to get players downing Deathwing, and there are two modes where that is clearly possible for the mass audience (LFR and Normal).

So with that in mind, why do you feel that you still need to plan on making an across the board (albeit gradual) nerf of the content before it's even out, and during its lifespan, when you're developing three separate difficulty modes for the raid? I understand wanting to do it with cockblock bosses or ones that are supremely difficult. But this path is a major turn off for the raiders in the range below the top 250 to about ~1000.

I just do not understand your rationale behind it.


Because after Ulduar, the original concept of hard modes died off.

Originally, you did normals, then when you and lots finished, more raids would be added, and you would do them on normal.

If you were a really skilled guild, you would do hard modes.

That is no longer the case, there are NO guilds that progress normals only, every single guild is expected to clear HM's right after normals, if you don't have HM cleared, people just mock every post you make about the game, because you're EXPECTED to clear HMs.

Since now everyone is expected to eventually do HMs, they nerf the HMs because they're too hard for most.
90 Human Warrior
9515
Just show us the numbers and shut us up already. Sheesh. People are gonna speculate and come up with their own answers. You might as well put out some cold hard facts so we can move on. Quit with the secrecy around your numbers. It's old hat now. The whole "you're wrong and we're right, but we're never gonna provide proof" bit is stale.


And why should they? All of the data that Blizzard collects on World of Warcraft is proprietary, and they'll share exactly as much of that with the public as they want to. The only thing that's stale around here is the sense of entitlement that Blizzard somehow owes us the information. If you must ask, try asking nicely instead of being so demanding.


While i agree that asking for the proof could have been done more politely i have to agree with the base statement. "no, your wrong but i wont tell you why" is kinda bologna. how is that NOT trolling? people are going to speculate and come up with different numbers and will argue over it. kind of the very definition of inflammatory.

I don't envy current blues for their responsibilities, but that pity does not go so far that i forget what their responsibilities to this community are.
94 Night Elf Rogue
15930
As others have pointed out, your 1.35% is just wrong due to the stats MMO is stating, but whatever, we’re not going to reveal any of our internal numbers to show how wrong you are, or discount the numbers posted on MMO for that matter. I will say they’re likely as accurate as they can be. Meaning, they’re wrong, but at no fault of theirs simply due to the data they have available to them. While we do have data we pull and review very regularly, it’s not always a true measure of success or failure without considering the context.

We try and make content for all of our players. It’s both a blessing and a curse that the WoW player base is as large and diverse as it is. “Hardcore” players for example tend to dramatically underestimate the skill gap between themselves and the vast majority of other players. A lot of games handle this problem through multiple difficulty settings. That is harder to do in a game as content rich as World of Warcraft, but it is something we’re looking at more and more with new features like Raid Finder essentially adding a more accessible setting.

But even with a system (we believe) as awesome as the Raid Finder, there are no simple solutions.

Players are motivated to raid (and do any content for that matter) for a lot of different reasons. A sizeable number of players are satisfied with seeing most of the game content once. If they kill the dragon or slay the Lich King, they (appropriately) feel like they have won the game. That view is pretty heretical to the traditional raider, who is used to working for weeks to defeat a boss and then spending the next few weeks or months farming that boss so that their group has a leg up for the next tier of content. Other players can be motivated by gear, and once they accrue their rewards they are done with the content. Others are motivated by the challenge, and if things are too easy, they lose interest. These players also tend to assume that everyone shares their mindset and they will be happy to wipe on a fight over and over and over with hopes of improving. In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they’re done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that’s not really our design goal. Raids represent an enormous commitment of developer resources. In the same way that we would never make 20 new Arenas just for Gladiator-level players, we don’t want to develop a raid that only 2% of our raiders can see. We will make sure that there are challenging encounters for players who enjoy that sort of thing (as many of us professional game developers do), but then our goal will be to, over time, broaden the potential audience by bringing the content difficulty down. We think the shock with Firelands for some players was that the nerfs were so severe instead of gradual. For the 4.3 Dragon Soul raid we plan on gradually nerfing it over time, sort of like we did with Icecrown Citadel, except by nerfing the content instead of buffing the players.

There is another portion of players that are just not interested in raiding no matter how accessible it is, and that’s fine too, but we do keep track of how player behavior in the past may match player behavior currently or even in the future as we make these choices. Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That’s not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.


thumbs up!
90 Human Paladin
6565
It's unfortunate Blizzard is still deciding to put things at one level off the hop..and then nerf it after the top tier have cleared the raids already.
It sort of sends a message that isn't terribly welcoming.
"Hey, you guys can raid too. Just wait till the big kids are done with it first. Then we'll nerf everything so you can do it too." /head pats.

That's because a lot of you DO need the nerf in order to even see Heroic Rag.

/head pat


I'm not saying it's not needed under their current design. It certainly is.
My point is...it shouldn't be needed, for a couple of reasons.

1. The extremely minimal population that clears things in a week, regardless of difficulty, shouldn't be the group that raid content is based on.
2. Making it obvious that regular players need not apply to current raids until after a couple months, really turns some people off. It seems to be condesending, because it is.

Heroic raids should always be the proving grounds of great players. Always. SO keep those hard...don't nerf em. Leave heroics alone. Let players show everyone their stuff with Heroic achievements when the content is relevant.
However, normal raids shouldn't be in need of nerfs to begin with. They should be the content that anyone can see and have a reasonable chance of succeeding at.
85 Human Rogue
3835
I think the problem is Blizzard still thinks most of their work should be on raiding, when the majority of players don't raid.

I've raided forever, but I always knew I was the very few on my server that got to see content.

Now with 10man's being so dominant it's nearly impossible to get into a raiding guild, no one wants to disrupt their 10mans and they don't want to deal with the dreaded 10man B team.

I don't have a solution, I just think that the model is a failing one, the only reason it works is because WoW is addicting, it's not because the game play is good. I mean the burn out rate is astonishing, I literally have zero friends who play WoW anymore. They'll come play for a few weeks, quit, I'll play for a few weeks quit and come back and it's a never ending cycle.

The game has just lost it's magic and maybe it's just because we've played it too long.

The reason the raiding model worked so well before (I'm talking Vanilla MC), was because everyone would see these raiders in gear that they wanted and so they would play as much as they could hoping they would some day be able to get the same gear.

The fact is, people finally realized, hey I'm never going to be "that guy" and so they quit.
94 Night Elf Rogue
15930
Just show us the numbers and shut us up already. Sheesh. People are gonna speculate and come up with their own answers. You might as well put out some cold hard facts so we can move on. Quit with the secrecy around your numbers. It's old hat now. The whole "you're wrong and we're right, but we're never gonna provide proof" bit is stale.


And why should they? All of the data that Blizzard collects on World of Warcraft is proprietary, and they'll share exactly as much of that with the public as they want to. The only thing that's stale around here is the sense of entitlement that Blizzard somehow owes us the information. If you must ask, try asking nicely instead of being so demanding.


While i agree that asking for the proof could have been done more politely i have to agree with the base statement. "no, your wrong but i wont tell you why" is kinda bologna. how is that NOT trolling? people are going to speculate and come up with different numbers and will argue over it. kind of the very definition of inflammatory.

I don't envy current blues for their responsibilities, but that pity does not go so far that i forget what their responsibilities to this community are.


If they keep you people arguing and speculating then you will keep playing for the ability to speculate. Either way they keep making money. win/win for Blizz
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]